Family:
Marriage:
Children:
- (Unk Dau)
- Baldwin V Count Of Flanders Birth: 1012
Death: 1 Sep 1067 in Lille
Bibliography
-
Baldwin, Stewart, Parentage of Otgiva of Luxemburg, TAG v83 (2008) pp116-21. Available at http://americanancestors.org/databases/american-genealogist-the/image/. Information from this source tagged as [Ref: Baldwin Otgiva p[0-9]*].
-
Brandenburg, Erich, Die Nachkommen Karls des Grossen, Faksimile-Nachdruck von 1935 (Facsimile reproduction of 1935), mit Korrekturen und Erganzungen versehen von (with corrections and additions provided by) Manfred Dreiss und Lupold v. Lehsten. Neustadt an der Aisch:Verlag Degener, 1995. NYPL ATH (Charlemagne) 96-4768. Information from this source tagged as [Ref: Brandenburg 1995 p[0-9]*].
-
Schwennicke, Detlev, ed., Europaische Stammtafeln: Stammtafeln zur Geschichte der europaischen Staaten, New Series. II: Die Ausserdeutschen Staaten Die Regierenden Hauser der Ubrigen Staaten Europas. Marburg: Verlag von J. A. Stargardt, 1984. Information from this source tagged as [Ref: ES II #[0-9]*].
-
Schwennicke, Detlev, ed., Europaische Stammtafeln: Stammtafeln zur Geschichte der europaischen Staaten, New Series. VI: Familien des Alten Lotharingien I. Marburg: Verlag von J. A. Stargardt, 1978. Information from this source tagged as [Ref: ES VI #[0-9]*].
-
The Henry Project: The Ancestors of King Henry II of England, An eperiment in a cooperative online database for scholarly medieval genealogy. Contributors and Editors: Stewart Baldwin, Todd Farmerie, Peter Stewart. Available at https://fasg.org/projects/henryproject/ Information from this source tagged as [Ref: HenryII .*].
-
Moriarty, G Andrews, Plantagenet Ancestry of King Edward III And Queen Philippa. Salt Lake: Mormon Pioneer Genealogical Society, 1985. LDS Film#0441438. NYPL ARF-86-2555. Available at https://familysearch.org/search/film/007905814?cat=66443. Also available at https://familysearch.org/search/catalog/66443. Information from this source tagged as [Ref: Moriarty Plantagenet p[0-9]*].
-
Paget, Gerald, The Lineage and Ancestry of H.R.H. Prince Charles, Prince of Wales. London: Charles Skilton Ltd, 1977. Nypl ARF+ 78-835. Information from this source tagged as [Ref: Paget HRHCharles p[0-9]*].
-
Phair, Raymond, Gilbert de Gant. Posting to soc.genealogy.medieval (email list GEN-MEDIEVAL) on 7/12/1999. Subject: Gilbert de Gant. Available at https://groups.google.com/g/soc.genealogy.medieval/c/iq4yL0Yk4S8/m/-yEogAnkh7MJ. Author address: rphair at CapAccess dot org. Information from this source tagged as [Ref: Raymond Phair SGM 7/12/1999].
-
Redlich, Marcellus Donald R Von, Pedigrees of Some of the Emperor Charlemagne's Descendants. Order of the Crown of Charlemagne, 1941. M-LH 929.7 PED v1. Available at https://familysearch.org/search/catalog/213795. Information from this source tagged as [Ref: Redlich CharlemagneDesc p[0-9()]*].
-
Richardson, Douglas, Royal Ancestry. Salt Lake City, Utah: Douglas Richardson, 2013. NYPL JFF 16-1184 v1-5 Information from this source tagged as [Ref: Richardson RoyalAnc v5p[0-9]*].
-
Sherman, Richard M, Continental Origins of the Ghent Family, Nottingham Medieval Studies, 1978, pp23-35. Available (for a fee) at https://www.brepolsonline.net/doi/epdf/10.1484/J.NMS.3.82. Information from this source tagged as [Ref: Sherman Ghent p[0-9]*].
-
Watney, Vernon James, The Wallop Family and their Ancestry, Oxford:John Johnson, 1928. LDS Film#1696491 items 6-9. NYPL ARZ+ (Wallop) (Watney, V. J. Wallop family). Available at https://familysearch.org/search/catalog/213421. Information from this source tagged as [Ref: Watney WALLOP #[0-9]*].
-
Weis, Frederick Lewis, Walter Lee Sheppard, Jr, David Faris, Ancestral Roots of Certain American Colonists who came to America before 1700, 7th Edition, Baltimore: Genealogical Publishing Co, 1992. Information from this source tagged as [Ref: Weis AR7 #[0-9][0-9]*[A-Z]*].
Sources for birth and parent Information
- date:
- abt 995 [Ref: Brandenburg 1995 p7, Moriarty Plantagenet p22, Weis AR7
#162]
- say 980x995 [Ref: HenryII otgiv000 4/5/2007],
- parents:
- [Ref: Moriarty Plantagenet p22, Moriarty Plantagenet p248, Paget
HRHCharles p54, Weis AR7 #162]
- Friedrich Gf v Luxemburg & dau Heribert Gf im Kinziggau [Ref:
Brandenburg 1995 p7],
- father:
- [Ref: Baldwin Otgiva p116, Brandenburg 1995 p8, ES II #5, Moriarty
Plantagenet p14, Paget HRHCharles p168, Redlich CharlemagneDesc p183, Sherman
Ghent p26, Watney WALLOP #408, Watney WALLOP #634]
- Frederic (d.1019) or Giselbert (d.1004) both sons of Sigefroid [Ref:
HenryII frede000 4/5/2007, HenryII otgiv000 4/5/2007],
- grandfather:
- Sigefroid of Luxemburg [Ref: HenryII otgiv000 4/5/2007]
Sources with Inaccurate birth and parent Information
- father:
- Giselbert (#22656) [Ref: Richardson RoyalAnc v5p496, Richardson
RoyalAnc v5p504]
Sources for death Information
- date:
- [Ref: Brandenburg 1995 p7, Brandenburg 1995 p8, ES II #5, ES VI #128,
HenryII baldw004 6/2/2008, HenryII baldw005 10/12/2006, HenryII otgiv000
4/5/2007, Moriarty Plantagenet p22, Paget HRHCharles p168, Paget HRHCharles
p54, Redlich CharlemagneDesc p183, Richardson RoyalAnc v5p496, Weis AR7 #162]
- 1030 [Ref: Watney WALLOP #408, Watney WALLOP #634]
- 21 Feb 1029/30 [Ref: Moriarty Plantagenet p14]
- 21 Mar 1030 [Ref: Moriarty Plantagenet p248]
Sources with Information about marriage to Baldwin IV The Bearded Count Of Flanders
- date:
- 1000-10 [Ref: Moriarty Plantagenet p248]
- 1012 [Ref: Paget HRHCharles p168, Paget HRHCharles p54]
- abt 1012 [Ref: Brandenburg 1995 p8, Moriarty Plantagenet p14, Moriarty
Plantagenet p22, Redlich CharlemagneDesc p183, Weis AR7 #162]
- before 1015 [Ref: Brandenburg 1995 p7]
- first marriage of Baldwin [Ref: HenryII baldw004 6/2/2008, Richardson
RoyalAnc v5p496]
- um 1005 [Ref: ES VI #128]
- um 1012 [Ref: ES II #5],
- names:
- [Ref: HenryII arnul000 11/25/2007, HenryII frede000 4/5/2007,
Richardson RoyalAnc v5p504, Watney WALLOP #634],
- child:
- [Ref: Brandenburg 1995 p9, ES II #5, HenryII baldw004 6/2/2008, HenryII
baldw005 10/12/2006, HenryII otgiv000 4/5/2007, Moriarty Plantagenet p14,
Moriarty Plantagenet p15, Paget HRHCharles p168, Paget HRHCharles p54, Redlich
CharlemagneDesc p183, Richardson RoyalAnc v5p496, Sherman Ghent p26, Watney
WALLOP #408, Weis AR7 #162]
Sources with Inaccurate marriage information
- child:
- Judith of Flanders (#11477), wife of Welf Duke of Bavaria and Tostig
Earl of Northumbria [Ref: Redlich CharlemagneDesc p271, Watney WALLOP #408]
Research Notes:
21 Feb 1030: burial mentioned in the annals of St Peter [Ref: Raymond Phair
SGM 7/12/1999]
A quick comparison of most modern sources with the medieval sources regarding
Otgive's parentage will reveal that the medieval sources give Giselbert as the
name of her father, whereas the modern sources almost invariably give the name
as Frederic. This anomaly obviously requires some discussion, especially since
it is not clear that modern scholarship has been right on this matter. The
logic behind making Otgive a daughter of count Frederic (d. 1019), advocate of
Stavelot-Malmedy (but often called "of Luxemburg" in modern secondary
sources), and son of Sigefroid of Luxemburg, is clear enough. Otgive is
usually identified in the medieval sources as a daughter of count Gislebert of
Luxemburg, and the only man of that name who can be found on the usual lists
of "counts of Luxemburg" is the Giselbert who died in 1056x9, son of the above
Frederic. Even in the extremely unlikely case that Otgive was born as late as
1000, attempting to make her a daughter of count Giselbert of Luxemburg (d.
1056x9) is not plausible, as the childbearing years of Giselbert's grandmother
Hedwig seem to have been roughly ca. 955 to ca. 980. Although it may be
possible to provide hypothetical birthdates toward this end which could not be
directly ruled out, it would still result in an improbably tight chronology
for several consecutive generations. Thus, this Giselbert does not make a
chronologically plausible father for Otgive, resulting in the conclusion that
the medieval sources are in some way flawed. Here, Flandria Generosa (ca.
1164) appears to come to the rescue, giving the same parentage, but then
adding the name of five brothers, namely bishop Adalbero of Metz, duke
Frederic of Lorraine, duke Henry of Bavaria, count Giselbertade Salinis [recte
Salm], and Theoderic of Luxemburg, all known to be sons of count Frederic.
Thus, with Otgive apparently being named as the sister of several individuals
known to be sons of Frederic, we have the reason that modern scholars have
generally place Otgive as a daughter of Frederic, which we shall call the
"standard scenario" below.
However, this conclusion uses a source which is both late and at least
partly erroneous (Otgive was not both a daughter of a count Giselbert and a
sister of Frederic's sons), and it is not at all clear that the count
Giselbert who is called Otgive's father in the earliest sources was the same
person as the count who died in 1056x9.
Another weakness of the standard scenario is that the title "count of
Luxemburg" is an anachronism for the first half of the eleventh century and
earlier [see Twellenkamp (1991)], so that the statement by Lambert of
Saint-Omer is best explained as an addition by him. Thus, it is important to
ask if there are any other counts Giselbert who would make a plausible
candidate for the count Giselbert who appears as father of Otgive
in Genealogia comitum Flandriae Bertiniana, and is qualified as count of
Luxemburg in an apparent addition of the early twelfth century. Two Giselberts
appear in a charter of duke Frederic I of Upper Lorraine for 959 [Cart. Gorze,
200 (#108)], one of whom was a brother of Sigefroid, but neither appears after
the 960's, and they make very unlikley candidates. However, it is more
difficult to rule out Sigefroid's son Giselbert, who appears as count of
Vaudrevange/Wallerfangen in 996, and died in Pavia in 1004 while serving in
Italy with his brother-in-law, the emperor Heinrich II. The region covered by
the countship of Wallerfangen (presumably named after Wallerfagen in Saargau)
is not clear, but appears to have included the villages of Mutfort and
Dalheim, both very near Luxemburg [Wampach (1935), 226 (#171), 292 (#207)].
Thus, not only is Giselbert in the right generation, but there is a good case
that an author of the early twelfth century, writing in the time just after
the countship of Luxemburg emerged as a territorial lordship, would have
regarded him as a count of Luxemburg. Although Giselbert is called "iuvenis"
at the time of his death [Thietmar, Chron., vi, 6, MGH SS 3: 806; Adelbold,
Vita Henrici Imp., c. 39, MGH SS 4: 693], that term is perfectly
consistent with a man in his thirties, and he was evidently an adult when he
appears as count of Wallerfangen in 996. Arguments of silence, such as the
fact that Giselbert is not otherwise known to have married or had descendants
[see, e.g., Hirsch (1862) 1: 538 n. 8 (Excurs XI)], do not make convincing
negative evidence in an age when documentation is as thin as it is here. The
following items summarize the main points for or against the two candidates.
For Giselbert as the father:
The earliest account, Genealogia comitum Flandriae Bertiniana, which makes
Otgive a daughter of an otherwise unidentified count Giselbert, while not
strictly comtemporary, was almost certainly written within living memory of
Otgive.
The suggestion that the author (or later, Lambert of Saint-Omer) was
referring to the count who died in 956x9 as the father of Otgive is undermined
by the existence of another candidate, so that there is no a priori reason for
regarding the statement of Genealogia comitum Flandriae Bertiniana as being
false.
Giselbert of Wallerfangen's countship contained villages in the vicinity of
Luxemburg, making it plausible that a twelfth century author might call him
count of Luxemburg.
The source which identifies Otgive as a sister of men known to be sons of
Frederic is late and contradictory.
For Frederic as the father:
Flandria Generosa identifies Otgive as a sister of five men who are known
to be sons of Frederic.
Otgive was clearly not the daughter of the Giselbert of Luxemburg who died
in 956x9.
Frederic is known to have had a wife and children, whereas Giselbert of
Wallerfangen is not known to have had a wife and children.
While there seems to be a good case for making Otgive a daughter of
Giselbert rather than of Frederic, the case does not seem strong enough to set
aside the "standard scenario" definitively. Thus, we leave the question of
Otgive's parentage as unsettled between the two alternatives. It is
interesting to note that Giselbert's candidacy as a possible father of Otgive
has been widely overlooked (I am aware only of Hirsch's abrupt dismissal of
the possibility; see above). Certainly, those who wish to argue a definitive
case for Frederic as Otgive's father ought to provide strong reasons for
rejecting Giselbert's candidacy. [Ref: HenryII otgiv000 4/5/2007]
Pedigree of Ogive Of Luxembourg
/-----
(Unk)
/-----
Wigeric Count in Bidgau
/-----
Siegfried Count Of Luxemburg
| \-----
Cunegunde
| | /-----
Charlemagne King Of France
| | /-----
Louis I The Fair Emperor Of The West
| | | \-----
Hildegarde Of Swabia, Countess Of Vinzgau
| | /-----
Charles II The Bald King Of Franks, Emperor
| | | | /-----
Guelph Count Of Andech And Bavaria
| | | \-----
Judith Of Bavaria
| | | \-----
Edith (Heilwig) Of Saxony, Abbess Of Chelles
| | /-----
Louis II The Stammerer King Of France
| | | | /-----
Hadrian Lord In The Worms
| | | | /-----
Eudes Count Of Orleans
| | | | | \-----
Waldast
| | | \-----
Ermentrude Of Orleans
| | | | /-----
Leuthard Count Of Fezenac
| | | \-----
Engeltrude
| | | \-----
Grimihild
| \-----
Ermentrude Of France
| | /-----
Ulrich I Count In The Orgengau
| | /-----
Wulfhard
| | /-----
Adalhard Count Of Paris
| | | | /-----
Begue Count Of Paris
| | | \-----
Susanna
| | | \-----
Aupals
| \-----
Adelaide
/-----
Frederick I Count Of Luxemburg
| | /-----
Eberhard III Count In Nordgau
| | /-----
Hugh I Count In Abracian Nordgau
| | /-----
Ebergard Count In The Nordgau, Count Of Alsace
| | | \-----
Hildegarde
| \-----
Hedwig Of Nordgau
| \-----
Bertha
Ogive Of Luxembourg
| /-----
Hadrian Lord In The Worms
| /-----
Eudes Count Of Orleans
| | \-----
Waldast
| /-----
Gebhard Count In The Nieder-Lahngau
| | | /-----
Leuthard Count Of Fezenac
| | \-----
Engeltrude
| | \-----
Grimihild
| /-----
Eudes Count In Lahngau
| | | /-----
Hunroch Count of Ternois
| | \-----
(Unk Dau) Of Friuli
| | | /-----
Begue Count Of Paris
| | \-----
Engeltron Of Paris
| | \-----
Aupals
| /-----
Gebhard Duke Of Lorraine
| | | /-----
Ruthardus Duke Of Bavaria
| | | /-----
Guelph Count Of Andech And Bavaria
| | | /-----
Conrad I Of Burgandy, Count Of Auxerra
| | | | | /-----
(Unk) Saxon
| | | | \-----
Edith (Heilwig) Of Saxony, Abbess Of Chelles
| | \-----
Judith
| | | /-----
Luitfriede II Count Of Alsace
| | | /-----
Hugh le Mefiant Count Of Tours
| | | | \-----
Hiltrude
| | \-----
Aelis Of Tours And Alsace
| | \-----
Ava
| /-----
Udo Count In The Wetterau
| | \-----
Ita
| /-----
Herbert I Count In The Kinziggau
| | | /-----
Charlemagne King Of France
| | | /-----
Karlman (Pepin) King Of Italy And Bavaria
| | | | \-----
Hildegarde Of Swabia, Countess Of Vinzgau
| | | /-----
Bernard King Of Italy
| | | | | /-----
Bernard Duke, Abbot Of Saint Quentin
| | | | \-----
Therres
| | | | \-----
(Unk Dau) Of Laon
| | | /-----
Pepin Count Of Senlis, Peronne, & St. Quentin
| | | | | /-----
Saint William Count Of Auton, Marquis Of Septimania
| | | | | /-----
Caribert
| | | | | | \-----
Kunigunde
| | | | \-----
Cunigunde
| | | /-----
Herbert I Count Of Vermandois
| | | | | /-----
Niebelung II Count Of Hesbaye
| | | | | /-----
Niebelung III Count Of Burgundy
| | | | | | \-----
Bertha
| | | | | /-----
Theoderic Count Of Vermandois
| | | | \-----
(Unk Dau) Of Vermandois
| | \-----
Cunegundis Of Vermandois
| | | /-----
Guerra I Count Of Morvois
| | \-----
Beatrice Of Morvois
| | \-----
Eve Of Roussillon
\-----
Ermentrude Of Kinziggau
| /-----
Eudes Count Of Orleans
| /-----
Gebhard Count In The Nieder-Lahngau
| | \-----
Engeltrude
| /-----
Eudes Count In Lahngau
| | | /-----
Hunroch Count of Ternois
| | \-----
(Unk Dau) Of Friuli
| | \-----
Engeltron Of Paris
| /-----
Eberhard I Count In Ortenau
| | | /-----
Guelph Count Of Andech And Bavaria
| | | /-----
Conrad I Of Burgandy, Count Of Auxerra
| | | | \-----
Edith (Heilwig) Of Saxony, Abbess Of Chelles
| | \-----
Judith
| | | /-----
Hugh le Mefiant Count Of Tours
| | \-----
Aelis Of Tours And Alsace
| | \-----
Ava
| /-----
Eberhard II Count In Bonngau
| | | /-----
Walaho
| | \-----
Wiltrud
| | | /-----
Guiguin Rupert III Count In Wormgau
| | | /-----
Rupert IV The Strong Count Of Tours
| | | | \-----
Wialdruth
| | \-----
(Unk Dau)
| | | /-----
Hugh le Mefiant Count Of Tours
| | \-----
Aelis Of Tours And Alsace
| | \-----
Ava
| /-----
Megingoz Count Of The Avalgau
| | \-----
Gisela
\-----
Irmentrude
| /-----
(Unk)
| /-----
Gerhard Count In Metzgau
| /-----
Godfrey Duke Of Lorraine, Count Palatine
| | | /-----
Bruno Count In Saxony
| | | /-----
Ludolph Duke Of Saxony
| | | | \-----
Oda
| | | /-----
Otto The Illustrious Duke Of Saxony
| | | | | /-----
Billung Count
| | | | \-----
Oda
| | | | \-----
Aeda
| | \-----
Udo Of Saxony
| | | /-----
Poppo I Count of Grabfeld
| | | /-----
Heinrich Of Thuringia, King Of Austriasia
| | \-----
Hedwige/Hadui/Haduich
| | | /-----
Eberhard Margrave Of Friuli
| | \-----
Ingeltrud Of Friuli
| | \-----
Gisele
\-----
Gerberga
| /-----
Louis I The Fair Emperor Of The West
| /-----
Charles II The Bald King Of Franks, Emperor
| | \-----
Judith Of Bavaria
| /-----
Louis II The Stammerer King Of France
| | | /-----
Eudes Count Of Orleans
| | \-----
Ermentrude Of Orleans
| | \-----
Engeltrude
| /-----
Charles III The Simple King Of Franks
| | | /-----
Wulfhard
| | | /-----
Adalhard Count Of Paris
| | | | \-----
Susanna
| | \-----
Adelaide
\-----
Ermentrude Of France
| /-----
Walbert Count In The Therwitugas
| /-----
(Unk)
| | \-----
Altberg
| /-----
Dietrich Count in Westfalen
| | | /-----
Eckbert The Loyal Count In Dreini And Ittergaus
| | \-----
Matilda
| | \-----
Ida
\-----
Frederuna
\-----
Ragenhilda
Descendants of Ogive Of Luxembourg
2nd generation
3rd generation
4th generation
5th generation