GEN-MEDIEVAL-L Archives

Archiver > GEN-MEDIEVAL > 1998-10 > 0908879043


From: Reedpcgen< >
Subject: CP XIV: FitzPayn, Grey, Bryan [VERY LONG!]
Date: 20 Oct 1998 10:24:03 GMT


I've spent much more time on this than I should have, but I now feel certain
that Elizabeth de Bryan was the only wife of Robert de Grey alias Fitz Payn of
Codnore. CP XIV must be in error where it states that his wife was Isobel,
daughter of Sir John de Clifford. I have looked at a great deal of material,
but don't have time to post all citations (I'll include a few of the more vital
ones below). That which is included below comes from primary sources,
contemporaneous with the individuals, unless otherwise noted. Because of the
length, I am posting this in more than one part.

First, let's work back from Robert de Ponynges, who was born 3 Dec. 1382. He
was son and heir of Richard de Ponyngs (d. 1387) and his wife Isabel FitzPayn.

Isabel FitzPayn was born about 1363-5, as she was aged 28 or 30 at the death of
her father in 1393 [CIPM 17:77-8, nos. 168-171)]. Isabel (d. 1394) was
daughter and heir of Robert FitzPayn, alias Grey, and his wife Elizabeth de
Briene/Bryan. Robert 'FitzPayn' was a younger son of Richard de Grey of
Codnor, co. Derby, but assumed the surname FitzPayn after being enfeoffed with
large estates by Robert [Lord] FitzPayn, his mother's brother [who died without
surviving male issue].

Robert FitzPayn/de Grey, born about 1321, died in 1393. He must have been
considerably older than his wife Elizabeth, who I conclude was the eldest child
of Sir Guy de Briene/Bryan, Lord Bryan, by his first wife Joan [de Carreu].
Robert was Sir Guy's contemporary (Sir Guy was aged 30 in 1349, or born about
1319), but was a very close associate of Sir Guy and apparently did not marry
until the eldest daughter was old enough.

BRIENE/BRYAN DESCENT:
1. Sir Guy de Bryan/Briene, of Walwayn's Castle, co. Pembroke, and Tor Brian,
co Devon, d. 1349 [CIPM Edw. III].
Children:
i. Sir Guy de Bryan/Briene [see no. 2, below].
ii. Master John de Bryan/Briene, cleric, prebend of Lusk, Dublin, Ireland,
etc. [CPR 1370-4, pp. 92, 417, etc.]

2. Sir Guy de Briene/Bryan, b. ca. 1319 (aged 30 at his father's death), d. 17
Aug. 1390, became one of the leading men of the realm (admiral of the fleet
towards the west, steward of the King's household, ambassador, etc.). He was
created Lord Bryan in 1350. He married (1) Joan [said to be daughter of Sir
John de Carreu], who was living in 1348. He married (2) by 10 July 1350,
Elizabeth de Montagu, daughter of William, Earl of Salisbury, widow of (1) Hugh
[Lord] le Despenser and (2) Giles [Lord] Badlesmere (he died 1338). Elizabeth
died 31 May 1359.
Children by (1) Joan [de Carreu]:
i. Elizabeth de Bryan, m. Robert FitzPayn alias Grey of Codnor.
ii. Margaret de Bryan, m. Hugh de Courtenay, grandson of the Earl of Devon.
Margaret, daughter of Guy de Bryene, was given life interest in a manor by
Hugh, Earl of Devon, on 8 Apr. 1361 [CPR 1361-4]. She and her husband Hugh
(therein stated to be grandson of hte Earl) were mentioned 16 Apr. 35 Edw. III
[1361], Sir Robert le fitz Payn being a witness [CCR 1360-1364, p. 262]. Hugh
de Courtenay d. s. p. 20 feb. 1373/4. [It is stated in Col. Top. et Gen.
3:276, note d, states that margaret married Sir john Erlegh, "by whom she had a
son Sir John Erlegh, whose daughter and heiress Margaret married Sir John St.
Maur.]
iii. Philippe de Bryan, m. Edward de Bohun [son of Sir John, Lord Bohun],
who d. s. p. Jan. 1361/2. Philippe was living 28 July 1368 [but it seems
possible that this Philippe might belong to the previous generation].
Children by (2) Elizabeth de Montagu:
iii. Guy de Bryan/Briene [see no. 3, below].
iv. Sir William de Bryan [Sir William and Philip do not appear in records
until the 1370s], d. s. p. 22 Sep. 1395, m. Joane, who survived him. He had no
surviving issue as his two nieces were found to be his heirs.
v. Philip de Bryan, d. s. p. by 14 feb. 1388.

3. Sir Guy le fitz de Bryene/Bryan, son and heir of Elizabeth, b. say. 1350,
died before his father, ca. 1386, married Alyse de Bures, apparently living 27
Jan. 1393/4 when she was her father-in-law's executrix. Guy, son of Guy de
Bryen, knight "being son and heir of the said Elizabeth ["le Despenser lately
deceased"]" was mentioned 18 Feb. 1377 [CCR 1374-7, p. 481]. As he was son and
heir by the second wife, his brothers Sir William and Philip must also be sons
of Elizabeth.
Children:
i. Philippe, b. ca. 1378 [aged 12 in 1390], d. s. p. [m. (1) John de Ros,
(2) Sir Henry le Scrope].
ii. Elizabeth, b. ca. 1380/1 [aged 9/10 in 1390], m. Sir Robert de Lovell.
They were parents of one surviving child and heir, Maud de Lovell [see no. 4,
below].

4. Maud de Lovell, daughter and heir of Elizabeth de Bryan/Briene, m. (1) Sir
Richard de Stafford, m. (2) as his second wife, John, Earl of Arundel (d.
1435). [CP 2:362 switches the order.]
Child by (1) Sir Richard de Stafford:
i. Avice de Stafford, daughter and heir, b. 4 Dec .1423 ,d. s. p. 3
June/July 1457, m. by 1438 James, Earl of Ormond.
Child by (2) John, Earl of Arundell:
ii. Humphrey, Earl of Arundell, b. 30 Jan. 1429, d. s. p. (unm.) 24 Apr.
1438.

With the death without issue of Maud de Lovell's children, the next right heirs
of Sir Guy, Lord Bryan, were the heirs of his daughters. Chronology and other
circumstances indicate that Elizabeth de Bryan, wife of Robert Fitzpayn alias
de Grey was the eldest of these coheirs.

[continued in part 2]

This thread: