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Archiver > GEN-MEDIEVAL > 1998-07 > 0901877119


From: Reedpcgen< >
Subject: Re: Tuberville heirs [{VERY} LONG], was Re: from Charlemagne to Arnold (?)
Date: 31 Jul 1998 09:25:19 GMT


A follow up on Stackpole and de la Bere.

Thomas de la Bere, who was born ca. 1402 (aged 9 in 1411), died 28 Oct. 1414.
He was son of John de la Bere who died 24 Sep. 1403, which John was born about
1383 as he was aged 15 in 1397/8 when an inquisition was taken by Sir John St.
John, which found that his father Sir John de la Bere of Weobley, co. Hereford,
died in 1380. This Sir John, knight, would have been born say 1335-45, so he
either did not marry until later in life, or had no issue by a first marriage.

The Calendar of Fine Rolls (CFR 14:101) states that certain lands in and around
Coytyff came into the hands of Laurence Berkerolles by reason of the minority
of Thomas de la Bere, son of John. John Seint John 'chivaler' son of Elizabeth
one of the sisters of John de la Bere 'chivaler' the father of John the father
of the said Thomas de la Bere, and John Basset, esquire, son of Margaret the
second sister of the said John de la Beer 'chivaler' are the next heirs, and of
full age. The lands were to be divided into two equal parts and John Seint
Johan and John Basset to have full seisin of their pourparties. Nothing was
said of the Stackpoles or other lines as the inquisition was only about the
lands held by Thomas de la Bere after the death of Laurence de Berkerolles
(which had been in the hands of the king). His cousin and heir, Sir John St.
John, was a servant of Mowbray, Duke of Norfolk, and one of the most important
men in the Gower peninsula. He was steward of the lordship of Gower for the
Mowbrays from 1397 through 1421. He was also deputy chamberlain and deputy
justiciar of South Wales, and was Mayor of Bordeaux, France, 1 Apr. 1413-12 May
1423 (he died 26 Dec. 1424).

This chronology agrees with what I estimated. We knew John St. John was not
born in 1360, but acting as an adult by 1384 (thus b. 1360-3). His mother
Elizabeth/Isabel de la Bere would therefore likely be born about 1340 or
earlier, which places here where we would expect to be Sir John's sister and
Thomas's great-aunt.

Now to Stackpole and Griffith. Sir Richard de Stackpole, who married Margaret
de Turberville, was a servant of Aymer Valence, Earl of Pembroke. He appeared
in a number of records pertaining to the Earldom. Sir Richard de Stakepol,
knight, witnessed a deed from Aymer de Valencia, Earl of Pembroke, dated 15 May
1 Edward II [1308] (CPR 1330-4, 67), witnessed another charter of the Earl
dated 24 Apr. 16 Edw. II [1324] (CPR 1374-7, 111), etc. Not only did he hold
Stackpole, which was worth 5 knights' fees, but 1 fee in Angle as well (CIM
7:273), and 1 fee in Lony, co. Pembroke. The inquisitions are clear that
Isabel de Stackpole was daughter and heir of Richard de Stackpole, son of Sir
Richard de Stackpole and his wife Margaret de Turberville. It is just that
Joan de Vernon is in one place called daughter of Richard de Stackpole, but
this is clearly an error, as it was long after the fact, and found by a jury
not closely associated with her.

Rhys [Hen] ap Gruffydd married Joan de Somerville by 1339. She was a great
heiress, which vaulted Rhys and his family into the limelight (and made
Griffith their surname instead of a temporary patronym). Sir Philip de
Somervill died 23 Jan. 29 Edw. III, holding land or moieties in (approximately)
one manor in Yorkshire, three in Leicestershire, one in Warwick, one in Derby,
fourteen in Northumberland, one in Lincoln, and three in Stafford (CIPM
10:220-5). Rees ap Griffyn and his wife Joan (Sir Philip's daughter, aged 40
and more), are mentioned frequently. The IPM of Rees ap Griffith/ap Gruffutz
[sic] the elder, knight, states that he died 10 May 30 Edward III, and held
manors or land at Stokton, co. Warwick, Staynton, Benton and Wytton, co.
Northumberland (held in right of his wife Joan), Orreby, co. Lincoln, Alrewas,
Whichenover, Briddeshall and Tatenhull, co. Stafford, Blacwelle, co. Derby and
in Nottingham. His wife, Joan, who "survies" was aged 40 and more [much more],
and his son and heir Rees ap Griffutz was aged 30 years and more "at Christmas
last." (CIPM 10:274-6). He also held land in Lansadorn, Talliares,
Combleant, Kilsayn, Kayo, Matihlayn, Maynordeill, Ketheynoc, Kergerwyn,
Perveth, Langiby, Bettous, Lanrustud, Generglyn, Pennarth, Lampeder, Drusselan,
Glycothy and Penneynt, all in South Wales.

So the son, Rhys ap Gruffydd, who married (1) Isabel/Elizabeth de Stackpole,
heiress of both Stackpole and Turberville lands, and (2) Margaret de Zouche,
was unquestionably son and heir of the elder Rhys by his wife Joan de
Somerville, coheiress of Sir Philip de Somerville. This younger Rhys ap
Griffitz [sic, both bore the 'surname' "ap Griffyth" in the English records]
died shortly before 26 May 1380, the date of the writ ordering his inquisition
post mortem (CFR 9:205, 260). The lands of Rees ap Griffith, knight, were put
into the hands of the king's brotherJohn Holand, knight, during the minority of
the heir (Ibid., 200).

***I DO NOT have this volume of the Calendar of Inquisitions Post Mortem
(Richard II), so IF ANYONE COULD CHECK IT I'd be interested to see if it states
anything about the daughter Joan who was heir of his first wife.***

CFR 10:8-9 states that the heir of Rees ap Griffitz, 'chivaler,' was named
Thomas and aged five years and more (20 Sep. 1383). That would place the birth
about 1378. BUT the proof of age for Thomas son of Rees ap Griffith, knight,
states that Thomas was born at Whichenor and baptized in the church there on 24
May 51 Edward III [1377] (CIPM 17:512-13 [15-23 Richard II]). William
Forester, aged 44, testified that he remebers the day because he had a black
horse which broke its leg at Lichfield the same day as the birth. Richard
Strangelford, aged 62, testified he remembered because he had to carry two
gallons of wine from Lichfield to Thomas's mother the day of the birth. Thomas
Wysse, aged 49, gave the best testimony at the proof of age, stating that
Thomas's age was written in the missal in the church at Whichenore.

So we know Thomas was born in May 1377, John probably about 1379, and Sir Rhys
died in 1380. Joan was born about 1371 or before, as she was aged 40 or more
in 1411. So Joan's mother died between about 1371 and 1376. Again, the Vernon
arms indicate that Joan's mother was an heraldic heiress. Joan was not the
heiress or the Griffith arms would have been quartered too. And the Griffiths
were so prominent and had such large land holdings that if one were going to
fake quartered arms it would have quartered the Griffith arms (wrongly) instead
of the Stackpoles, who were relatively obscure. Chronology does not allow
another generation between Joan's mother and Richard de Stackpole. Joan's
mother must have either been Isabel/Elizabeth de Stackpole, or her sister. It
could not have been a father's sister, or other arms would have been introduced
into the quartering too from the sister's husband. Joan was called heir to
Isabel de Stackpole in the inquisition of Laurence de Berkerolles, though it
was in error in the latter part of the inquisition which stated Joan to be
daughter of Richard de Stackpole. We have ample evidence to prove she was
daughter of Rhys ap Gruffyd. So again, I am inclined to agree with the
information in Llyfr Baglan, which states that Elizabeth [Isabel] de Stackpole,
Richard's daughter, married Richard [Rhys] Gryffin [ap Gruffydd] and that they
were parents of Joan, who married Sir Richerd Varnam [Vernon], knight. Llyfr
Baglan got some of the pronunciation wrong, the connection being passed down
verbally, but that almost adds to its credibility, i. e., that the author was
not aware of the specific families, but gave the closest rendition that existed
to his ear. If he were falsifying things one would have thought he'd get it
right. So anyway, ...

And Shaw states (p. 404) that Joanna, wife of Richard de Vernon, dead 1402-3,
was "called (probably with truth) heir of Stackpole, living 1402-3" citing Deed
of Bishop Edmund Stafford "cop. in Huntb. No. 2." I was not able to find such
a deed among the series of Ancient Deeds, so it may recorded in that Bishop's
register. I don't remember if the register of Edmund Stafford has been
published yet. I have not checked for an inquisition of Sir Richard Vernon yet
to see if he held Stackpole at his death in 1409.

One LAST thing. I thought this interesting. CCR Henry IV 4:407 records, under
the date 20 Oct. 1412, that the king gave order to the sheriff of Hereford
(with provision to to take with him a posse with him if need be) to make
proclamation in places near the castle of Coityf in places where William Gamage
and Sir Gilbert Denys, knight, are to have "speediest" notice of it. They had
assembled armed men and archers at the castle and besieged and held it "with
armed power and the strong hand." In spite of this, "the said Gilbert and
William with no small number of men armed and arrayed in manner of war did
repair to the said castle, beseige it, and maintain the seige, purposing with
the strong hand to thrust out Joan who was the wife of Richard Vernoun knight
from possession thereof, in contempt of the king, contrary to diverse statutes,
and to the disturbance of the king's true lieges there...." The king appointed
a number of men to go and lift the seige, but "the king is informed" that in
spite of being made aware of the king's orders, Gilbert and William Gamage
"gathered together so great a multitude of armed men and archers there to
hinder the execution of their commission, that the commissioners dared not for
their lives repair thither." The king's will was "not to leave such contempt
and mischief unpunished." Hmmmm. One wonders why Joan (Griffith) Vernon held
the Castle of Coity instead of William Gamage. It was later determined by law
that the castle should belong to William Gamage and his heirs, as male heir of
Sir Payne de Turberville. Such was life.

pcr

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