GEN-MEDIEVAL-L Archives

Archiver > GEN-MEDIEVAL > 1998-11 > 0912121870


From: Stewart Baldwin< >
Subject: Llywelyn AT - Part 8 of 9
Date: Thu, 26 Nov 1998 23:11:10 GMT


Note: This is Part 8 of 9 parts.
Some of this may be unintelligible if you do not have all parts.

Stewart Baldwin

--------

Generation 21

1048576-1048831. Unknown.

1048832. Unknown. [Note: As remarked above under #524416, the
traditional pedigree of the kings of Gwynedd faces chronological
problems at this point.]

1048833-1146879. Unknown or duplicated.

1146880. Cormac mac Ailella (of U Dnlainge) [R.117d=BB.138a (Rw.18,
CGH.14); R.124b=LL.315c=Lec.91Ra=BB.132a (Rw.338, CGH.74); LL.337f
(CGH.423); WUD] [Note: He appears as king of Laigin (Leinster) in the
official king lists, but his actual status as king is doubtful. See
#286720.]

1146881-1146885. Unknown.

1146886. Fergnae mac Fergusa (of U Mil) [WUD]

1146887-1146895. Unknown.

1146896. Nad Frach mac Echach (of U Dnlainge)
[R.124b=LL.316a=Lec.91Va=BB.132b (Rw.343, CGH.74), WUD]

1146897-1146911. Unknown.

1146912. Eochaid mac Muiredaig (of the Cenl Loairn branch of Dl
Riata) [SFA; GA; R.162e=LL.336b (Rw.1697, CGH.329)]

1146913-1146943. Unknown.

1146944. Senach Dbech (of U Mil) [R.125a=Lec.95Rc (Rw.348, 350,
355, CGH.76)] [Note: According to the official U Mil pedigree
(Rw.355, as cited above), Senach was son of Cirthenn Muach, son of
Etarscl, son of engus Ailche, son of Fergus Forcraid, son of Tuathal
Tigech, son of Maine Ml (eponym of U Mil), who was in turn the
supposed brother of the mythical Cathair Mr (see note to #4587520).
An alternate version (R.121a=Rw.176) makes Tuathal Tigech the son of
Mac Locc son of Cathair Mr. Senach is mentioned in AU (633) as the
grandfather of king Crimthann mac eda of Leinster, and the
genealogies in R give the names of younger sons for both Senach and
his son ed, both good indications that Senach was historical. On the
other hand, Senach's predecessors in the genealogy are nothing but a
string of names back to the point where the genealogy becomes clearly
mythical. Thus, even though we cannot rule out the possibility that a
couple of generations before Senach are correct, Senach is the point
at which the genealogy becomes clearly hisorical.]

1146945-1146975. Unknown.

1146976. Eochu (or Eochaid) Guinech, king of U Bairrche, said [AI,
CS] to have killed Crimthann mac nnai Chennselaig, king of Laigin
(see #4587968) [CGH.117a=LL337f (Rw.6, CGH.6);
R.121a=LL.313b=Lec.87b=BB.126aa (Rw.180, CGH.46)] [Note: The names
Eochu and Eochaid have been frequently confused, even in the early
sources, and it is not clear which one is correct. The official
genealogy then proceeds to make Eochu a son of engus, son of Mac
Ercca, son of Breccn, son of Fiacc, son of Dire Barrach (eponym of
the U Bairrche), son of Cathair Mr, of whom the last two can be
regarded as certainly mythological. (See, for example, EIHM pp.
36-8). An Eochu Guinech also appears as a son of Dire Barrach in the
U Bairrche genealogies [R.121a (Rw.181, CGH.46)], suggesting
confusion, and it is difficult to accept the genealogy prior to Eochu.
The Leinster king list [LL.39b] states that Eochu was the maternal
grandson of Crimthann (the king of Leinster whom he killed). However,
since CS, under the year 487, names Eochaid Guinech as one of the
victors in a battle in which engus mac Nad Froch (king of Munster)
and his wife Eithne (daughter of Crimthann mac nnai) fell, it is
possible that confusion between engus of U Bairrche (father of Eochu
in the official genealogy) and engus of Munster has led to confusion
here. While possible, more evidence is desirable before the claimed
relationship between Eochu and Crimthann can be accepted.]

1146977-1146991. Unknown.

1146992. Cormac mac Nath (of U Chennselaig). [R.117e=Lec.93Ra
(Rw.21, CGH.15); LL.317a=Lec.93Va=BB.136a (CGH.347); LL.337a=Lec.92Vb
(CGH.429); LL.337b (CGH.431)]

1146993-1146999. Unknown.

1147000. Cobthach, of the Disi [WUD; LL.328c (CGH.400)] [Note: See
the comments under #573500.]

1147001-1610239. Unknown or duplicated.

1610240. Arthur ap Pedr [HG.2: "Arthur map Petr"; ED] [Note: Arthur
ap Pedr, of the dynasty of the kings of Dyfed, probably lived in the
seventh century, and should not be confused with the King Arthur of
legend (whose historical existence is, at best, debatable).]

1610241-2097151. Unknown.

Generation 22

2097152-2293759. Unknown or duplicated.

2293760. Ailill mac Dnlainge (of U Dnlainge), king of Laigin
(Leinster) [R.117d=BB.138a (Rw.18, CGH.14);
R.124b=LL.315c=Lec.91Ra=BB.132a (Rw.335, 338, CGH.74); LL.337f
(CGH.423)]

2293761-2293771. Unknown.

2293772. Fergus (of U Mil) [WUD]

2293773-2293791. Unknown.

2293792. Eochaid mac Dnlainge (of U Dnlainge)
[R.124b=LL.315c=Lec.91Ra=BB.132a (Rw.335, 338, CGH.74);
R.124b=LL.316a=Lec.91Va=BB.132b (Rw.343, CGH.74)]

2293793-2293823. Unknown.

2293824. Muiredaig mac Loairn (of the Cenl Loairn branch of Dl
Riata) [SFA; GA; R.162e=LL.336b (Rw.1697, CGH.329)]

2293825-2293983. Unknown.

2293984. Nath mac Crimthaind (of U Chennselaig) [R.117e=Lec.93Ra
(Rw.21, CGH.15); LL.317a=Lec.93Va=BB.136a (CGH.347); LL.337a=Lec.92Vb
(CGH.429); LL.337b (CGH.431)]

2293985-3220479. Unknown or duplicated.

3220480. Pedr (Peter) ap Cyngar [HG.2: "Petr map Cincar"; ED]

3220481-4194303. Unknown.

Generation 23

4194304-4587519. Unknown or duplicated.

4587520. Dnlaing (also #4587584), ancestor of the sept of U
Dnlainge, which monopolized the kingship of Laigin (Leinster) from
the seventh through the early eleventh centuries. [Note: As the
ancestor from whom the U Dnlainge got their name, his existence can
be regarded as reasonably certain, and he probably lived in the
mid-fifth century. The official genealogies call him the son of nnae
Niad, son of Bressal Blach, son of Fiachu Ba hAiccid, son of Cathair
Mr, at which point we are clearly in the mythical part of the
genealogy. Although the existence of nnae and Bressal as father and
grandfather of Dnlainge cannot be ruled out, neither can it be
accepted as probable. The official genealogy, which makes Dnlaing a
first cousin of nnae Cennselach (#9175936 below), ancestor of the U
Chennselaig (the other main powerful sect in Leinster during the
historical period), thus causing the two main Leinster septs to branch
off from each other just prior to the historical period, looks
suspicious, and is just as likely to be the invention of the later
pseudohistorians as genuine tradition.] [R.117d=BB.138a (Rw.18,
CGH.14); R.124b=LL.315c=Lec.91Ra=BB.132a (Rw.335, CGH.74); LL.337f
(CGH.423)]

4587521. Unknown [Note: She was said by WUD to be Cuach ingen
Chelbaid, but this appears to have been added to WUD at a later date
from the original composition.]

4587522-4587583. Unknown.

4587584. Dnlaing, ancestor of the sept of U Dnlainge (see
#4587520).

4587585-4587647. Unknown.

4587648. Loarn, ancestor of the Cenl Loairn branch of Dl Riata.
[SFA; GA; R.162e=LL.336b (Rw.1697, CGH.329)] [Note: Although the
later genealogies make Loarn a son of Erc, and brother of Fergus,
ancestor of the later kings of Scotland, there is no good reason to
believe that the supposed sibling relationship is historical, as
discussed in detail by Bannerman in SHD. Loarn is given in some king
lists as king of Dl Riata before Fergus (see, for example, "The Poem
A Eolcha Alban Uile", edited by Kenneth Jackson in Celtica 3 (!956),
149-67), but it is unclear whether or not this is to be regarded as
historical fact, or as a late invention of the Cenl Loairn.]

4587649-4587967. Unknown.

4587968. Crimthann mac nnai Chennselaig (of U Chennselaig), king of
Laigin (Leinster), said to have d. 483 [AU], but this date is well
before contemporary annalistic recording in Ireland, and is to be
taken with a grain of salt. [R.117e=Lec.93Ra (Rw.21, CGH.15);
LL.317a=Lec.93Va=BB.136a (CGH.347); LL.337a=Lec.92Vb (CGH.429);
LL.337b (CGH.431)]

4587969-6440959. Unknown or duplicated.

6440960. Cyngar ap Gwerthefyr [HG.2: "Cincar map Guortepir"; ED]

6440961-8388607. Unknown.

Generation 24

8388608-9175935. Unknown or duplicated.

9175936. nnae Cennselach, ancestor of the sept of U Chennselaig, one
of the principle dynasties of Leinster in the historical period. As
the ancestor from whom the U Chennselaig got their name, his
existence can be regarded as reasonably certain, and he probably lived
in the mid-fifth century. The official genealogies call him the son
of Labraid Laidech, son of Bressal Blach, which would make him a
first cousin of Dnlainge (#4587520 above). For the same reasons
already discussed above under #4587520, these prior generations have
not been accepted in this table. [See LL.316c6=Lec.92Rb=BB.134a
(CGH.344), plus the sources cited under #4587968 above.]

9175937-12881919. Unknown or duplicated.

12881920. Uortiporius (Voteporix, Votecorigas, Modern Welsh Gwerthefyr
ap Aergul), king of Demetia (Dyfed), was apparently old at the time
Gildas was writing (perhaps between 500 and 550) [Gildas, De Excidio
Britanniae, 31; CIIC.358=ECMW.138, a memorial stone with Irish ogam
inscription "VOTECORIGAS" and Latin inscription "MEMORIA VOTEPORIGIS
PROTICTORIS; HG.2: "Guortepir map Aircol"; ED] [Note: As the
recipient of a severe denunciation by his contemporary Gildas, and the
subject of a memorial stone, he is the best documented individual in
the earlier generations of this ancestor table. His uncertain
chronological position depends on the still debated chronology of his
contemporary Gildas. (See the notes under #524416 above.)]

12881921-16777215. Unknown.

Generation 25

16777216-25763839. Unknown.

25763840. Agricola (Aergul Lawhir), king of Demetia (Dyfed) (a good
king, according to Gildas) [HG.2: "Aircol map Triphun"; ED] [Note:
His reign as king of Dyfed is confirmed by the contemporary testimony
of Gildas, who, although he does not provide his name, calls his son
Uortiporius the bad son of a good king. His name comes from the later
sources, of which HG is the earliest. His chronology is very
uncertain, due to the uncertain timeframe of Gildas, but the late
fifth century would be a reasonable estimate. Agricola was of Irish
descent, a member of the tribe known as the Disi, a segment of which
moved from Ireland to Wales at an uncertain date, and eventually
became rulers of Dyfed. His claimed father Tryffin (Triphun), if
accurately remembered, is nothing more than a name, and there are
significant disagreements in the genealogy prior to Tryffin. If it
can be accepted that they hide a grain of truth, it is at least
arguable that Agricola's grandfather was a man who was nicknamed
"Briscus" (Irish "Brosc", Welsh "Vreisc"). See DGD and DD for
detailed discussions. It should be noted that the larger generation
number for Agricola and his immediate descendants is due to the fact
that the dynasty of Dyfed appears to have had a somewhat smaller
average number of years per generation that the other lines followed
(but not enough smaller to cause suspicion), and that Agricola was
probably a rough contemporary of the Irish men who appear in
generations 22 or 23.]

25763841-33554431. Unknown.

End of known ancestry.

This thread: