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From: Richard Borthwick< >
Subject: Re: Piacenze
Date: 16 Jan 1999 19:56:03 -0800


At 08:53 PM 16/01/99 +0100, you wrote:
>1- The first aleramics were Guglielmo (count), his son Aleramo (Count and
>marquis), and g.sons Anselmo (m. Gisla, an "obertenga", i.e. from the clan
>of the Obertenghi from which the Este, Pallavicini and Malaspina come) and
>Oddone, who is apparently the one (Oddo) you are quoting. However Anselmo
>and Ottone were still alive in 961, as in 991 they founded the monastery of
>Spigno. Actually in 961 his father Aleramo and his mother Gerberga, dau of
>Berengario II, were still alive). It is true that the Monferrat family comes
>from Oddone thru Guglielmo, Ottone, Guglielmo, Ranierei etc.
>In conclusion are we talking of the same Oddo?
>
>2-My genealogy of d'Este starts with Alberto Azzo II (996-1097, yes a
>biblical age!), so I cannot help you, unless Oberto II were the father of
>Azzo II, which I don't know.
>
>However thru the "obertenga" GISLA and thru Riprand de Piacenza there might
>be a cross connection between the Aleramic and the Este.
>
>Will anyway try to find out something more.
>Hope it helps Regards Lorenzo Carcano
>
>Mardi Carter ha scritto nel messaggio < >...
>I have two individuals who may be one or at least of the same family.
>Does anyone know?
>
>(1) Riprand de Piacenza whose unnamed daughter married Oddo (d. 961) and
>descended to the Monferrat family?
>
>(2) Riprand de Piacenza's daughter Railendo married Oberto II (d.
>1014/21), Marq. of the Este family.
>
>mbc
>
Oberto II (d. about 1014) was the father of Adalberto Azzo I (d.<1050) and
grandfather of Adalberto Azzo II (d.1097) and hence of the Estensi. Oberto
II was also the father of Oberto III (a.k.a. Obizzo I) from whom the
Malaspina. Oberto IIs brother Adalberto I (d.1001/02) headed up the other
branch of the family from which arose the Pallavicino, Gavi, Parodi and
Massacorsica families. The father of Oberto II and Adalberto I was Oberto I
(d.<975).

Adalberto I had a son Oberto* (he is not assigned a number so I mark him
with *) who dead v.p. by 996 and two daughters one of which was Gisla
wife of Anselmo I (son of Aleramo) whose brother Oddo married an unnamed
daughter of of Riprando count of Piacenza.

The foregoing account has a bearing on the issue of the Obertenghi marriage
to Railenda di Piacenza. She married Oberto II.

Riprando I de Basilicaduce (dead by 988) is attested as a vassal of
Berengar II in 945. He had two sons, Gandolfo count of Verona in 967 and
Riprando II (dead by 999) count of Piacenza 964-990. Gandolfo had a son,
Riprando III who was count of Verona in 993. Riprando II had a son,
Lanfranco who was count of Piacenza 999-1021. Lanfranco married Berta
sister of Oberto* and daughter of Adalberto I above. Railenda and the
unnamed wife of Oddo were daughters of Riprando II. Riprando had a wife
Berta whose identity is in dispute. Violante maintains that she was a
member of the Bernardengi clan and specifically that she was the daughter
of Bernardo III (dead by 996) count of Parma 964, in exile 970-974 and
count of Pavia in 991 by his wife Rolinda (i.e. Rotlinde) daughter of king
Hugo of Italy. Jackman maintains that she is probably a daughter of Rudolf
II king of Burgundy by Bertha daughter of Burkhard II duke of Swabia and
his wife Reginlint.

Jackman correctly wants to maintain as a hypothesis that Berta wife of
Olderico Manfredi margrave of Turin was the daughter of Oberto II and
Railenda. The onomastic argument is seductive when one considers the
transmission of the names Bertha/Berta and Railenda (a variant form
of Reginlint). The only (?) problem with this hypothesis is that Violante
and others see Berta wife of Olderico Manfredi as the daughter of Oberto*.
The name Berta already occurred in the Obertenghi namely in Berta the
sister of Oberto* who married Lanfranco di Piacenze.

Violante, C "Alcune caratteristiche della strutture familiari in Lombardia,
Emilia e Toscana durante i secoli IX-XII" in Duby, G & Le Goff, J (eds)
*Famiglia e parentela nell'Italia medievale* (Bologna, 1977) Tav.2 & 5.

F Cognasso *Il Piemonte nell'eta sveva* (Torino, 1968) Tav.VI.

Jackman, D C *The Konradiner: A Study in Genealogical Methodology*
(Frankfurt am Main, 1990) 102-103, 105.

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