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Archiver > GEN-MEDIEVAL > 1998-02 > 0887055594


From: Stewart Baldwin< >
Subject: Re: Kings of Scots & DalRiata + how far back?
Date: Mon, 09 Feb 1998 20:19:54 GMT


(Alan B. Wilson) wrote:

> Since 30 Dec 1997 when Stewart Baldwin unlinked the chain which I had
>sought to forge from Eva of Leinster to Niall of the Nine Hostages, I've
>been wondering what other line, from which many may trace descent, might
>reach so far back--say to the fifth century.

> The early kings of the Scots and of DalRiata would seem to be quite
>firm back at least to Fergus Mar mac Ercc who lived in the fifth century.
>And perhaps one may "push the envelope" yet another generation or two.

> I'll be glad to receive corrections on any of the following. I'd
>especially appreciate a critical assessment of generations 20-23.

[later generations omitted]

>19th Generation
>

>327680 Gabran mac Domangart King of DalRiata.[74, 170:4],[73, p.
>28],[248],[416, Table C, p. 230],[426, p. 76],[151, 165:49],[104, p.
>21],[82, 730:04] Gabran mac Domangart died in 560.[248, + 558],[426, p. 76
>+ (560)],[73, p. 28 + (560)] King of DalRiata {538-558}.[248]

>20th Generation
>

>655360 Domangart mac Fergus King of DalRiata.[74, 170:3],[73, p.
>28],[248],[416, Table C, p. 230],[426, p. 76],[151, 165:50],[104, p.
>21],[82, 730:08] Domangart mac Fergus died in 507.[248],[426, p. 76 +]
>King of DalRiata {501-507}.[82],[248]

>655361 Feidelm Fotchain.[74, See 170:3],[73, p. 28],[248],[151,
>251:52],[82, 730:09]

>21st Generation
>

>1310720 Fergus Mar mac Ercc King of DalRiata.[74, 170:2],[73, pp. 28,
>243],[248],[416, Table C, p. 230],[426, p. 76],[151, 165:51],[104, p.
>21],[82, 730:16->731] Fergus Mar mac Ercc died ca 501.[248],[73, pp. 28,
>243] King of DalRiata {ca 500-501}.

>1310722 Brion.[74, See 170:3],[73, p. 28],[426, p. 9],[248],[151,
>251:53],[82, 730:18->732]

>Brion is listed as a half-brother of Niall of the Nine Hostages in the
>official tradition. [426, Fig. 2, p. 9]

>22nd Generation
>

>2621440 Ercc mac Eochaid Munremar King of Irish DalRiata.[74, 170:1],[73,
>pp. 28, 243],[248],[416, Table C, p. 230],[151, 165:52],[82, 731:02] Born
>ca 400 in Northern Ireland.[73, p. 243 *],[82] Ercc mac Eochaid Munremar
>died in 474; he was 74.[74, 170:1 +],[73, pp. 28, 243 +],[82]

>2621444 Eochaid Mugmedon.[73, p. 28],[426, p. 9],[248],[151, 251:54],[82,
>732:02 & 2108:08]

>23rd Generation
>

>5242880 Eochaid Muinremur King of Irish DalRiata.[74, 170:1],[73, pp. 28,
>243],[248],[151, 165:53],[82, 731:04] Born in 4th cent.[73, p. 243 (Ercc
>b. ca 400)] Eochaid Muinremur died bef 439.[73, pp. 28, 243 +],[82] King
>of DalRiata in Ireland.

> "Fergus Mor, one of Erc's sons, is generally considered to be the
>earliest historically authenticated ancestor of the kings of Scotland, but
>it is just possible that Fergus had a father Erc who had a father Eochaid
>Munremar."[248]

> Chronicle of the Scots[157, p. 133] lists the genealogy: . . .
>Malcolaim filii Cinada, filii Maelcolaim, filii Domnaill, filii
>Constantin, filii Cinacha, filii Alpin, filii Echach, filii Eda-find,
>filii Echadach, filii Echach, filii Domongrat, filii Domnail-bric, filii
>Echach-buide, filii Edan, filii Gabran, filii Domangrat, filii Fergusa,
>filii Eirc, filii Echach-muinremuir, filii Oengusaphir, filii
>Fedelinthe-aislingig, filii Oengusa-buiding, filii . . .

> Corpus genealogiarum sanctorum Hiberniae[442, p. 34 #201] lists the
>genealogy (of the saint Berchan m. Micain): . . . Loairn m. Eirc Moir m.
>Echach Munremuir m. Oengusa Fir m. Feidlimid Aslingthig m. Oengusa Budnig
>m. Senchormaic m. Cruithluthi m. Find Fecci . . .

>REFERENCES
[omitted]

The problem with trying to "push the envelope" beyond Fergus is that
it has already been pretty much pushed to the limit as it is. Both
Fergus and his son Domangart are very shadowy figures. St. Columba
did not arrive in Ireland until after the death of Gabran, during the
reign of Conall. It was about a hundred years later that Adamnan
wrote his life of St. Columba, and about the same time (i.e., the late
seventh century) that the annals become clearly contemporary. In
general, the earlier annals were compiled later, based on whatever
material was available at the time.

Now, the kinglists of Dal Riata begin with Fergus, who appears to have
been the leader who removed the seat of government of the Dal Riata
from Ireland to Scotland (probably due to Ui Neill encroachments).
This apparently occurred during the living memory of the oldest
individuals living during the time of St. Columba, and it is
reasonable to accept that basic information (although the dates
certainly cannot be trusted to be accurate to the year), even though
virtually nothing is known of the first three kings (Fergus,
Domangart, Comgall).

However, when you get back to the generation of Fergus's father, the
whole scheme reeks of late invention. Loarn and Oengus, ancestors of
the other two septs of the Dal Riata, are made out to be brothers of
Fergus, but there is no guarantee that this was the case. It appears
to be just the typical scheme in which the ancestors of the various
competing groups are made into brothers in the "official" genealogy.
Several possible scenarios suggest themselves.

(a) The known genealogy originally began with Fergus, and when the
genealogists made Fergus, Loarn, and Oengus into brothers, they
invented the names prior to Fergus.

(b) There was a genuine tradition that Fergus was the son of Erc and
grandson of Eochaid, and when Loarn and Oengus were made into brothers
of Fergus, they were attached at the appropriate place in Fergus's
genalogy.

(c) Fergus, Loarn, and Oengus actually were brothers, despite the very
suspicious nature of the evidence.

(d) None of the above. (Numerous other competing scenarios could be
developed, all consistent with the meager surviving evidence.)

All of the above scenarios are POSSIBLE. However, in my opinion, it
is not appropriate to choose one of them to the exclusion of the
others. Thus, I think it is best to cut the pedigree off at Fergus.

Regarding the supposed marriage of Domangart, it is chronologically
possible, but the evidence is late, and I am dubious about it. The
connection between Brion and Eochaid Mugmedon should also be
considered dubious. There is a lot that is suspicious in the early
history of the kings of Connacht, and it is quite likely that the
"brother" relationship between Niall and Brion (and others) was a
later invention, similar to the case of Fergus, Loarn, and Oengus.

[Begin nitpick mode]
When writing Irish names using the "mac" element, you need to put the
patronymic in genetive rather than nominative.
[End nitpick mode]

Stewart Baldwin

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