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Archiver > GEN-MEDIEVAL > 1999-05 > 0926346424
From: Richard Borthwick < >
Subject: Re: Hastings Pedigree (corrections)
Date: Mon, 10 May 1999 22:27:04 +0800
At 02:55 AM 9/05/99 +0100, you wrote:
>I fear my question of a few minutes ago re Robert de Hastings wasn't well
>designed to gain a very helpful answer. Of course the two Roberts may well
>be the same, and he simply had two wives (Maud de Flamville and Isabel
>grdda. of Walter Fitz Other). What I'm really asking is for help in
>sequencing Robert among the Hastings and his wife among the Flamvilles (if
>that is right). Cheers for your patience!
>
>Cris
I am getting to an age when I should NEVER write anything without all the
sources in front of me! I did not have the Moriarty papers in front of me
last night and thought I accurately recalled what they said. I was
mistaken. So here is a re-write.
The connection between the two Flamville families is not known, but little
doubt that they are the same family group. Roger (II) de F. (d.1169) and
his wife Juetta de Arches (d.about 1206) had a daughter Maud (d.after 1219)
who married Robert de Hastings (d.about 1190). If Robert has a wife Isabel
(and there is some doubt about this - Sanders expresses some caution) she
would have been his first wife as Moriarty points out in his earlier paper.
In that paper Moriarty makes Isabel the mother of Alice (p.48). I think
Moriarty is right in his second corrective paper in thinking Maud to be the
mother of Alice (p.294).
Robert was son of William (d.1162/66) and Hawise ? de Guerres (d.after
1219). William was the son of Robert fitz Walter (d.about 1128). Debate has
centred on whether his father Walter was Walter fitz Other (Windsor) or
Walter the Deacon (otherwise known as Walter fitz Tedric). Moriarty opts
for the second alternative and then in the course of an later extended note
of correction he opts for the first alternative. Moriarty, however, leaves
open the real possibility of Robert fitz Walter's father being Walter the
Deacon (the position he first espoused). Keats-Rohan *Domesday People*
I:454 says that Walter the Deacon was brother and heir of Tedric
(Theoderic) in the lands in Essex which became known as the barony of
Little Easton and that Robert fitz Walter (aka de Windsor) was Walter's
son. Moriarty and Keats-Rohan both agree that Walter was heir of his
brother Tedric, but Keats-Rohan does not mention Walter and Tedric being
sons of an earlier Tedric. Moriarty (2nd paper) and Keats-Rohan both rely
on the work of L Landon "The Barony of Little Easton and the Family of
Hastings" in *Trans. Essex Arch. Soc.* vol xix. In addition K-R cites B
Dodwell "Charters relating to the Honour of Bacton" in *A Medieval
Miscellany for Doris Mary Stenton* eds. P M Barnes & C F Slade, Pipe Roll
Society NS 36 for 1960 (London, 1962) pp.147-165.
The problem of which Walter to give as father of Robert fitz Walter hinges
on the fact that Robert is the successor of Walter the Deacon. It is quite
odd that Walter's putative son-in-law would succeed him when he (Walter the
Deacon) already had sons to do so. It is this feature which would seem to
point overwhelmingly to Robert being Walter's eldest son and not his
son-in-law. This point is obscured to modern eyes by Robert being sometimes
known as Robert de Windsor (the toponym used by his putative wife's family).
It is likely that Robert fitz Walter married a dau. of Walter fitz Other
according to Moriarty and both he and K-R note that Robert fitz Walter's
sister, Edith married Maurice de Windsor, brother-in-law of William de
Hastings. K-R has this as a second marriage and her first was to Ralph the
steward of St Edmunds.
Why the names 'Windsor' and 'Hastings' were used by members of Robert's
family is something of a mystery. The Fitz Other (or Windsor) family linked
Robert's family and that of Hastings and the adoption of such surnames was
a very fluid matter at this stage of surname development.
The first Moriarty paper is "The Origins of the Hastings" in NEHG Register
96 (1942) pp.36-48. Part II of this paper (pp.46-48) is entitled "the
Barons of Little Eston of the Family of Hastings". The second paper is
"Hastings, Barons of Little Eston, Co. Essex, England" in NEHG Register 101
(Oct. 1947) pp.291-295.
The resulting picture would seem to be:
Tedric
|
________________|________________
Walter fitz Other Walter the Deacon Tedric
| |
| |
______|______________ ___________|_____________________________
N oo Maurice N oo Robert f W Walter Alexander Edith oo Maurice
William de Windsor | Mascherel de Waham de
de Hastings | Windsor
|
William f R oo Hawise de oo Gilbert de Pinkeny
| de Guerres
|
|
Robert de Hastings oo Maud de Flamville
|
|
Alice, heir
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