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Archiver > GEN-MEDIEVAL > 1996-03 > 0826861590
From: Stewart Baldwin < >
Subject: Re: Possible line from Tostig?
Date: Fri, 15 Mar 1996 03:46:30 GMT
On the question of whether or not Skuli and his brother Ketil Krok
were the sons of Tostig (son of Godwine),
(Kaare Albert Lie) wrote:
(snip)
>Heimskringla, ed. Finnur Jonsson, Oslo 1966, p. 510, says about
>Skuli and his brother Ketill krok that they were both noble men
>of noble English family ( ... badhir gofgir menn ok kyrnstorir af
>Englandi). Nothing more is said about his ancestors.
>But there are other sources. Fagrskinna, ed. Bjarni Einarsson,
>Reykjavik 1985, p. 290, says "Skuli, sonr Tosta jarls." That is,
>"Skuli, son of Earl Toste".
>And Morkinskinna (ed. Finnur Jonsson, Copenhagen 1931, p. 283) is
>even clearer. Here we read "Sculi s. Tosta iarls Gothina s." -
>"Skuli, son of Earl Toste, son of Gothwin".
>What is Oldnorsenet - and where do I find it?
>Yours,
>-----------------------------------------------------------
>Kaare Albert Lie
>Norway
>-----------------------------------------------------------
Based on these entries, it looks like it could be argued either way
whether or not Skuli and Ketil were the sons of Tostig. Looking at
both sides, the arguments might go something like this.
AGAINST
In this case, one could argue that the versions making Tostig the
father of the two men were a late addition, in which someone took the
"noble English family" statement and just guessed that Tostig was the
father, because that was the only contemporary English noble whose
name he knew. It could be further argued that Tostig was famous
enough that their descent from him (if true) would not have been
forgotten, and that the vagueness of the statement "noble Englsih
family" indicates that the family was obscure.
FOR
Since there is no outright contradiction, the two versions could very
well be independent versions of the same story. Snorri no doubt took
copious notes when he was gathering information during his visits to
Norway, but he may not have had access to the full information when he
was back in Iceland writing his history. Although the name of Tostig
was probably well known among the learned, it may not have been known
to Snorri's friend and informant Jarl Skuli (descendant of the above
Skuli), who was possibly the one who gave Snorri his data on this
family.
Trying to decide among these two alternatives (if it is possible to
decide at all) would probably require a detailed study of the
manuscripts involved, to see whether or not they are independent of
each other in the relevant passages, or whether some of them derive
from the others. The survivng manuscripts of such medieval works are
often much later than when the works were originally written, and have
often undergone changes by later copyists, so such a study would have
to be done by someone who is familiar with the relevant manuscripts
and well versed in tracing manuscript origins.
By the way, even if the affiliation between Tostig and Skuli is
accepted as true, there don't seem to be any early British families
which could take advantage of the line. As far as I know, the
earliest descendant to bring the line back to the British Isles was
Margaret of Denmark, wife of king James III of Scotland. For those
who are interested, here is how she descended from the elder Skuli.
[Up to Hakon IV is from Heimskringla, and after that comes from Prince
Isenburg's earlier version of Europaischen Stammtafeln, since I don't
have access to the newer version.]
Skuli, perhaps [but perhaps not] a son of Tostig
md. Guthrun, daughter of Nefsteinn
|
Asolf of Rein
md. Thora, daughter of Skopti, son of Ogmund
|
Guthorm of Rein
md. [unknown]
|
Bard of Rein
md. twice
|
Skuli, powerful Norwegian Jarl, and friend of Snorri
md. [unknown]
|
Margaret, d. 1270
md. 1225 Hakon IV (b. 1204, d. 1268), king of Norway
|
Magnus VI (b. 1238, d. 1280), king of Norway
md. 1261 Ingeborg, daughter of Erik IV, king of Denmark
|
Hakon V (b. 1270, d. 1319), king of Norway
md. 1299 Eufemia, daughter of Wislaw III, prince of Rugen
|
Ingeborg of Norway (b. 1301)
md. 1312 Erik of Sweden (d. 1318), duke of Sudermannland [sp?]
|
Eufemia (b. 1317)
md. 1336 Albrecht I (b. 1318, d. 1379), duke of Mecklenburg
|
Ingeburg of Mecklenburg
md. 1366 Heinrich II, count of Holstein
|
Gerhard VI, count of Holstein
md. 1391 Elisabeth, daughter of Magnus II, dike of Braunschweig
|
Hedwig of Holstein, d. 1436
md. 1423 Dietrich (d. 1440), count of Oldenburg
|
Christian I (b. 1425, d. 1481), king of Denmark, Norway, and Sweden
md. 1449 Dorothea, daughter of Johann, margrave of Brandanburg
|
Margaret of Denmark
md. James III, king of Scotland
|
V
---------------------------------
Stewart Baldwin
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