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From: Richard Borthwick< >
Subject: Re: HENRY II, COUNT OF EU--PART 1
Date: 11 Jan 1999 09:27:49 -0800
At 01:05 PM 10/01/99 -0800, Dave Utz wrote:
>The main source for much of the following is "Genealogical Memoirs of the
>Counts of Eu in Normandy, 996-1350 and the English Earls of Eu, of the House
>of Bourchier, 1419-1540" attempted by Robt. Edmund Chester Waters, B.A., a
>Barrister of the Inner Temple, etc., etc., 1886
<SNIP>
>Notes for John de Eu:
>Witnessed his brother Henry's grant to Robertsbridge Abbey and became on the
>death of his nepliew in 1186 the last male descendant of the Counts of Eu of
>this line. He inherited his mother's fief in Romney Marsh, and confirmed to
>the monks of Robertsbridge about 1203 the grants of his deceased mother and
>brotber. He was in high favour with King John, for be took the King's side in
>the quarrel with the Lusignans of whom lie was somewhat jealous. The
>consequence was, that when it was rumoured in England that the Countess of Eu
>was dead, the citizens of Eu were commanded by the Royal Letters Patent dated
>1 April 1202 to acknowledge her uncle John as the rightful beir of the
County.
>The rumour turned out to be false, but there is evidence that John
remained in
>the King of England's service, and kept his estates at a time when the King
>was at open war with the Count and Countess of Eu. He did not always however
>escape giving offence to his jealous and capricious Sovereign, for the last
>notice of John of Eu in the Close Rolls is in a writ dated 15 April 1207,
>wbereby the Sheriff of Kent is directed to restore to him the lands of which
>he had been disseised during the King's displeasure. He died unmarried, and
>his fief in Kent came eventually to his niece the Countess of Eu, for after
>his death it was included in the Honour of Tickhill when it was granted to
>Prince Edward.
>
>iv.Matilda de Eu.
>v.Margaret de Eu.
>vi.Ida de Eu (Source: (1) BxP, 266., (2) 455, 266.), married William de
>Hastings.
>
>Notes for William de Hastings:
>Steward to King Henry II.
>
>"About 1166 William de Hastings succeeded to the dapifership of St.
>Edmund's. Henry II confirmed to William de Hastings, 'my despenser', the
>dapifership of St. Edmund's as it had been held by his paternal uncle,
>Ralf, and by the latter's maternal uncle ( i.e. William's grandmother's
>brother), Maurice de Windsor (Clark, op. cit.; [this is Rise of Hastings
>mentioned in Round's article, which Moriarty defends, 'which has, with
>some justice been criticized by Dr. Round... . It must be observed,
>however, that while the pedigree compiled by Dr. Clark contains serious
>errors, all students of the family owe him a lasting debt for the great
>amount of original source material collected by him, which is of vital
>importance to the study of this house. It is to be regretted that Dr.
>Round himself never undertook to compile the Hastings pedigree.']Josceln
>de Braklond, Chron., Camden Soc.; Page's Suffolk Traveller; Round.), and
>the same King confirmed to William de Hastings his inheritance which
>came from his grandfather, William de Hastings, and from Hugh Hastings
>his father, in the time of Henry I, and also the lands given to Robert
>de Flamville by Robert de Limesi, Bishop of Coventry (Bishop,
>1100-1117), which came from his mother Ernberga de Flamville (Eyton's
>Shropshire V:137, 151). Dugdale in his Baronage (Vol. I:574), cites from
>the collections of Robert Glover, Somerset Herald, the confirmation by
>Henry II to his dapifer William de Hastings, of the fees of Burbache,
>Barewell, and Birdingbury, with their appurtenances, i.e. Scerescleve
>(Sketchley) and Eston (Aston-Flamville), and Stapleton, together with
>his houses in Coventry, with a burges ther and a croft in Wilie to hold
>by service of two kts. fees freely as Henry I gave them to his father,
>Hugh de Hastings, with Erneburga, daughter of Hugh de Flamville; and he
>also confirmed to him the lands of William de Hastings, his grandfather,
>and of Hugh his father, which they held in the time of Henry I." These
>evidences are probably to be found in one of the rolls sereies which
>have been published.
>
>These lands descended in the senior line. Our Thomas is head of the
>junior line which we are following. "On 1 April 1182 Thomas de Hastings
>appeared befor the Abbot of St. Edmund's, leading 'his nephew Henry de
>Hastings', who was not yet a knight, and demanded for him his hereditary
>office of dapifer of the Abbey (Brakelond, op. cit., pp. 116, 117, 118;
>Eyton V: 138; Clark, op. cit.)."This would tend to show that Hugh and
>Erneberga had a younger son, Thomas.
>
>Hastings Manuscripts, Hist. MSS Comm., 1925, Vol. I:206, gives the gift
>of Gissing, Norfolk to Thomas and the confirmation to his son, Hugh. [Kay
>Allen AG ]
<SNIP>
Dave, I take it that Chester Waters does not mention Ida but that BxP is
your sole source for this marriage. Thanks to Kay Allen and a library I
have had the chance to review the documentary evidence. Moriarty does not
give any credence to the Ida of Eu marriage for William Hastings. In fact
it doesn't as far as I can tell get a mention. I have been unable to locate
in any of the documents cited any reference to this alleged marriage.
Thomas (d.1182/89) was the uncle of Henry (d.s.p.<1189) (son of William I
(d.< 11 Apr 1182)). This makes William I and Thomas sons of Hugh (d.<1166)
and Erneburga de Flamville. William I married Maud Banastre before 1168.
Maud survived William I and d.about 1222. Her son and heir (since Henry
died before his mother), William II, inherited lands in Shroposhire from
her. William II is said to have married Margaret le Bigod (though I have
not yet found the evidence for this). ES III/4:693 does not mention Ida or
a Hastings marriage. Alix of Eu lady of Hastings (d.1219) was the heir to
the rape of Hastings and she was the daughter of Henry II count of Eu and
lord of Hastings (d.1190/91). Alix married Raoul de Lusignan.
The most likely reason for the intrusion of a marriage between Eu family
and that of Hastings was to provide the remote descendants of Thomas de
Hastings with an ancient but non-existent right to the rape of Hastings
(which was in fact conferred on them by royal gift on 15 Dec 1487). Thomas
is represented in the old pedigrees as having Ida as his mother. Whatever
the reason for introducing Ida, if she was the wife of William I then
neither William II nor Thomas can have descended from her. The references
are given in the postings we had on this subject last year.
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