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Archiver > GEN-MEDIEVAL > 2005-10 > 1128350414


From: Kevin Bradford < >
Subject: Re: Maternity of Beatrix Brewes, wife of Hugh Shirley
Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2005 10:40:14 -0400 (GMT-04:00)


It will be interesting to observe if Mr. Richardson now agrees with Mr. Mackenzie's revised opinion, and which of his own books, Plantagenet ancestry (where Joan de Percy is Beatrix's mother), or Magna Carta ancestry (where Joan Howard is Beatrix's mother), is correct.

Best,

Kevin
Plantagenet Genealogy & Biography: http://home.earthlink.net/~plantagenet60/plantagenet01.htm

-----Original Message-----
From: Paul Mackenzie < >
Sent: Oct 3, 2005 12:28 AM
To:
Subject: Re: Maternity of Beatrix Brewes, wife of Hugh Shirley

Doug Thompson wrote:
> in article , Douglas
> Richardson at wrote on 01/10/05
> 5:24 pm:
>
>
>>Dear Newsgroup ~
>>
>>Please find below a copy of a post in the archives written by Paul
>>Mackenzie of Australia. This post dicusses the evidence regarding the
>>identity of Beatrice Brewes' mother, Joan Howard, wife of Peter de
>>Brewes. The chief evidence is a window in the church of Wiston, Sussex
>>commemorating Lady Joan de Brewes, which shows the Brewes arms impaled
>>with the Howard arms. Mr. Mackenzie states: "I think it is safe to
>>conclude that Joan Howard was Robert Howard's sister and that she
>>married Peter de Brewes of Wiston."
>>
>>I agree with Mr. Mackenzie.
>>
>>Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
>>
>>Website: www.royalancestry.net
>
>
> Douglas
>
> I repeat the substance of my post.
>
> 1. There is no evidence for any second marriage of Peter de Brewes.
>
> 2. Neither is there any evidence that John Howard of East Winch had a
> daughter Joan.
>
> Much as I respect the vast amount of genuine research done by Paul, I am
> sure that he too would recognise that this conclusion has to go under the
> heading of "Speculation" rather than "Fact" and has no place in a work which
> purports to be authoritative.
>
> It is never safe to conclude something which has no evidence to support it.
>
> Doug
>
>
>
Hi all

In retrospect, I think the statement made by
myself that "I think it is safe to conclude that
Joan Howard was Robert Howard's sister and
that she married Peter de Brewes of Wiston."
was too strong. Rather I should have said something
like "the possibility exists..." Whilst there is
circumstantial evidence, there is as Doug Thompson
states no "declaratory" evidence that Peter de Brewes
married a second time and that John Howard had
a daughter Joan.


For those interested, I outline the circumstantial
evidence below. My conclusions are only "speculations"
at this time. Further evidence is still required.

In the series of Patent rolls 1378/81 concerning
Margaret Nerford reference is made to John de
Brewes, Robert Howard, Thomas Howard and others
abducting Margaret Nerford. Robert Howard
apparently was imprisoned in the tower of London
for his part of the misadventure. There is also
an ancient shield in the Wiston church having
the family emblems of DE BRAOSE dexter and
HOWARD impaling and the words above it
"Pp. DAME JOH'NE DE BR.". As the de Brewes
occupied Wiston for only two generations,
it most likely that Joanne Howard married
either Peter or one of his sons. Furthermore,
in a Inquisition post mortem dated 1374, on
Alice late the wife of John Howard knight,
mention is made of Alice in 1369 enfeoffing
Peter de Brewes knight and others of the
manors of Garboldecham, Uphalle Norfolk.
The inquisition post mortem found that Robert
Howard her son aged 30 was her next heir.
This seems to suggest that Johanne Howard
was from the family of Alice Howard and
was probably a daughter and married into
the de Brewes family sometime in the period
during or after 1369. It is unlikely that
Joanne Howard married John de Brewes as he
was already married to Margery Nerford in
1378 and most likely was his intended since
1363, when Peter de Brewes was granted
guardianship of Margery Nerford. His other
younger sons Richard and Thomas would have been
in their minority during 1369. Peter's wife
had died in 1368, so the possibility exists
that Joanne Howard married Peter de Brewes.


Kind Regards


Paul Mackenzie



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