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From: SETTIPANI< >
Subject: De NEVERS
Date: 5 Dec 1998 07:36:29 -0800


The Ascendancy of Ermengarde of Tonnerre : Part II

The ancestry of Helvisa (no 3) is unknown, but I suppose her a niece of
Hardoin, bishop of Noyon (1015-1027) (M. Chaume believed she was a
sister of his). Hardoin is brother of Garnier and son of Robert of
Croyes. Probably they are issued of Waltharius (Gauthier, Walter), count
of Valois, Amiens and Vexin (d. c. 992/8), grandson of the caroligian
Helvisa.
The family of Ermengardis (no 5), widow of Herbert, not the reverse, is
not « Bar-sur-Seine » (one misunderstanding hypothesis of E. Petit :
such a dynasty does not exist at this time). She was, I think, the
daughter of Alberic II of Macon and his second wife.
Engeltrudis (no 9) is certainly, as showed by E. Petit, of Brienne
family. She was more probably the sister (not daughter) of Engelbert I
and Gau(s)bert. May be they are the nephews of Engeltrudis, viscountess
of Chalon and the posterity of Gausbert of Nevers, grandson of an
Engeltrudis.
The family of Adela (no 17) is not identified. Her name and her
granddaughter’s, Liedgardis, point to Vermandois. But the name
Liedgardis come perhaps via Engeltrudis : Engeltrudis of Chalon was
probably mother of Liedgardis of Dijon. So, the best solution was that
of M. Chaume, the countess Adela is the same that Adela, sister Leotald
of Macon, who make an important donation in 958 for the soul of a Wido,
may be the count of Tonnerre.
Renard (no 32) is not attested as member of the family. He is named as a
count in a trial about Tonnerrois and fit at the good place for the
missing generation in the family (to justify Renard II’s name, wich was
no more inherited from a pseudo ‘Bar-sur-Seine’ dynasty, and because
Milo II’s daughter was a Ren-trude).
Last, Adela (no 65) : if her son was really a Renhard, she was undoubtly
the sister of Renhard and Manasses I of Auxerre. The family’s origin is
Lotharingian.

Bibliography :
C. Bouchard, Sword, Miter, and Cloister. Nobility and the church in
Burgundy, 980-1198, Londres 1987.
M. Chaume, Les origines du duche de Bourgogne, vol. I, Dijon, 1925.
M. Chaume, Recherches d’Histoire Chretienne et medievale, 1947,
p.260-277.
J. Laurent, L’origine du comté de bar-sur-Seine, Annales de Bourgogne ,
(1951), p. 172-180.
J.-N. Mathieu, Recherches sur les premiers comtes de Tonnerre et de
Bar-sur-Seine, Bulletin de la société d’archéologie et d’histoire du
Tonnerois , 47 (1994), p. 21-29.
E. Petit, Histoire des ducs de Bourgogne de la race capétienne, 6 vol.,
Paris, 1885-1898.
C. Settipani, Les origines maternelles du comte de Bourgogne
Otte-Guillaume, Annales de Bourgogne, 66 (1994), p. 5-63.
C. Settipani, Les comtes d’Anjou et leurs alliances aux Xe et XIe
siècles, dans K.S.B. Keats-Rohan (ed.), Family trees and the Roots of
Politics, Woodbridge, 1997, p. 211-267.
C. Settipani, Les Widonides : le destin d’une famille aristocratique
franque du VIe au Xe siècle, memoire de D.E.A., Paris Sorbonne, 1998.

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