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From:
Subject: Re: Edmund, Earl of Lancaster's cousin, John de St. John
Date: Sat, 2 Aug 2003 17:28:42 EDT


Saturday, 2 August, 2003


Dear Douglas,

Thanks for another interesting find and lead.

A preliminary look at the ancestry of Sir John de St. John of Basing,
Hants.
[clearly the "Sir John" of the 1294 records; see AT given below] does not
give
a ready answer as to his relationship to Edmund of Lancaster. The de
Gournay-
Dammartin line would be reasonable, if the relationship was to the issue of
Edward I of England (nieces/nephews of Edmund), but this is not the case.

I do have a suggestion, for which proof might now be sought. Godeheut,
paternal grandmother of Sir John, is identified below by her two marriages
(incl. William de St. John) and a reference that she is 'called Godeheut
Paynel in the Boxgrove pedigree' [this from the CP account for St. John of
Basing, I believe]. I would actually like to suggest that she was an
hitherto
unknown/unidentified Godeheut de Tosny/Tony, daughter of Roger de Tosny and
Constance de Beaumont. In addition to resolving whence the name Godeheut was
drawn from, this explanation would have the benefit of (A) working with the
known chronology, as given below, and (2) providing the basis/confirmation of
the kinship between Sir John de St. John and Edmund of Lancaster, as follows:

NN ~ Henry I of England = Maud of Scotland
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ I I__________
I I
Constance of = Roscelin de Geoffrey of = Maud/Matilda
England I Beaumont Anjou I
I____________ I
________________ I I
I I Richard de Beaumont Henry II of
Godeheut Ralph d. aft 22 Sep 1199 England
= William de Tony I______ I
de Mohun I I I
I I I
Roger de Tony = Constance John of
d. aft 29 Dec 1208 I England
_______________________________ . . . . . I
I I I I . I
Ralph Roger Richard Margaret ? I
d. 1239 d. 1228 d. 1252 Godeheut Henry III of
= William de St. of England
John (d. 1239) I
________________I ______I_________
I I I
Robert de St. John Edward I EDMUND OF
d. bef 26 Mar 1266 LANCASTER
I
I
SIR JOHN DE ST. JOHN
d. bef 30 Sept 1302


This theoretical relationship would place Sir John and Edmund of
Lancaster
as 4th cousins, 1x removed. Certainly a recognizable relationship for the
age.

Should anyone have any comment or criticism re: the above, or suggestions
for research (let alone documentation to hand), all such responses are surely
welcome.

Good luck, and good hunting to all.

John *



_____________________

AT of Sir John de St. John:


1 John de Saint John. John died bef 30 Sep 1302.[1]

knight, of Basing, Hants.
one of the magnates en route with Edward I in France and Spain (1286).

One of the Auditors on behalf of King Edward at the trial of the claims to
the crown of Scotland, 1292
seneschal of Aquitaine 1294; captured by French forces ca. 1296,
released in 1297[1]

fought in the Caerlaverock campaign of 1300

' Johannes de Sco Johanne Dns de Hannak ', 20th of the barons who sealed the
Barons' Letter to the Pope, February 1301 (in response to the Scots letter
to Boniface VIII in 1298, defying the claimed English superiority)
following the Parliament at Lincoln, 13-20 Jan 1300/1[2]

bef 29 Jun 1256 John married Alice Fitz Reynold[1].[1]


2 Robert de Saint John. Robert died bef 26 Mar 1266.[1]

knight, of Basing, Hants.
held the Honour of Halnaker of the Earl of Arundel, by 1243[1]

had charter from King Henry III dated 4 Jan 1251 for a market and fair at
Walkhampstead [later known as Godstone], Surrey[3]

Robert married Agnes de Cantelou.

3 Agnes de Cantelou.

parentage as documented in the Boxgrove Stemma Funditoris
(cf. CP Vol XI [St. John], p. 323 and 323n[1])


4 William de Saint John. William died in 1239.[1]

of Basing, Hants. and West Shefford, Berks.
originally called William de Port

made profer in 1202 of £150 for the lands of his great-uncle William de
St. John in England [the Honour of Halnaker]; his Norman lands were
forfeit in 1204 upon his declaration for John in the pacification

supporter of King John - Southampton Castle put into his custody on father's
death, 1213; Sheriff of Hants. 1214-1215. Later in the camp of Prince
Louis, 1216, but returned to the King's peace by Feb 1219/20[1]

William married Godeheut[1].

5 Godeheut.[1]

called Godeheut Paynel in the Boxgrove pedigree

m. 1stly William de St. John,
2ndly Richard de Lucy (holding her dower of West Shefford, Berks.)[1]

6 William de Cantelou.[1] William died on 22 Feb 1250, he was 65.[1]

of Aston Cantlow, co. Warwick
steward of Henry III[4]
" he and Milicent his wife, 'formerly wife of Aumarie, Count of Evreux,'
had dower in Petersfield and Mapledurham (CP Vol V (Gloucester), p. 693)"[1]

served coheir to his cousin William de Courtenay, of a moiety of the manor
of Badmondisfield, Suffolk [Copinger, Vol. V, p. 301 citing O. 26 Hen.
III. 2][5]

had the wardship of young Piers de Montfort: under a charter dated 10 Feb
1227 from King Henry III for a market and fair at Beaudesert, co. Warwick,
' the market and fair evidently held by William de 'Cantilupe', who paid
15 marks for holding same'[3]

acquired the manor of Bingley, co. Yorks. ca. 1230 : following the
forfeiture by Maurice de Gant of his manor of Bingley in connection
with his ransom,
'...William de Cantilupe received a confirmation from the Crown of
the vill, market and manor of Bingley of the gift and feoffment of
Rannulph, earl of Chester and Lincoln, to be held of him by the
service of half a fief of one knight.'[6]

'Willielmo de Cantilupo junior ', had grant of manors of Boggeden and
Haverburgh, co. Leics. for his life from King Henry III, 18 Jan 21
Hen III (1236/7) [Nichols II/2, p. 488, ref. Testa de Nevill][7]

NOTE: (1) Turner assigned the acquisition of Bingley to
William (d. 1239), father of this William.
(2) The relationship of William de Cantelou to
William de Curtenai, as noted by Copinger
(see above), is unproven.[8]

In 1217 when William was 32, he married Millicent de Gournay.[1],[9]

7 Millicent de Gournay. Millicent died in 1260.[10]

she m. 1st Amauri de Montfort, Count of Evreux,
2ndly William de Cantelou[1]

Fine for her marriage by William de Cantelou 'senior', 2 Hen. III
(Dugdale, citing Rot. Pip. 2 H. 3)[9]

her maritagium included lands in Houghton, co. Beds. (fine in 4 Hen.
3 paid by William de Cantelou 'senior' for these lands)

re: her 2nd husband, William de Cantelou:


8 Adam de Port. Born ca 1150.[1] Adam died bef 29 Jul 1213, he was 63.[1]

of Basing, Hants. and West Shefford, Berks.
made a render of 1000 marks for the fine of his land and for his wife's
inheritance in Normandy, prob. for having married without licence, 1180[1]

2nd husband of Sibyl de Braose, then Countess (Dowager) of Derby

bef 1 Jan 1179 when Adam was 29, he married Mabel d'Orval.[1]

9 Mabel d'Orval.

heiress of the Honour of Halnaker, Sussex (through her mother) and of the
d'Orval lands[1]
identified in the Boxgrove pedigree, and confirmed (see gift by William
d'Orval confirmed by Adam de Port and Mabel his wife, after 1180;
see CP Vol XI (St. John), p. 320n[1])
first wife of Adam de Port[1]

12 William de Cantelou. Born ? 1158. William died on 7 Apr 1239, he was
81.[11]

of Aston Cantlow, co. Warwick

Steward to King John, 1210
Sheriff of Warwickshire and Leicester 1201-1204, 1209-1216[9]
Sheriff again under Henry III, 1217-1223 (2 Hen. 3-9 Hen. 3)[9]

exchanged the manor of Cockeswell, Berks. to the King for the manor of
Eaton [Eaton Bray], Beds., charter for which dated 4 April 1205
[Eyton Vol. VI, p. 356][12]

by a fine of Jan 1211, levied before the King at Westminster, acquired the
manor of Meole Brace, co. Salop to be held of Roger de Mortimer by the
service of one knight's fee, in exchange for 300 merks of silver
[Audulf II de Braci to hold a moiety of de Cantelou, by the service of
half a knight's fee]. Eyton, Vol. VI, pp. 354/5[12]

In 1213 ( 15 Joh.), had respite for
' Three hundred marks for a Fine which he was to have paid for the Wardship
and Custody of the Land of Henry de Longchamps Heir; ..' [his nephew][9]

' In this second year of King Henry the Third, he gave another Fine of two
hundred marks for Milisent, the Widow of Almaric, Earl of Evreux, to be a
Wife for William his Son; and for Katherine, the Daughter of Hugh de
L'Isle, to be married to one of his Brothers.
' In 4 Hen. 3. he paid to the King ten pounds Blanck for Lands in Hochton,
which he had with the Daughter and Heir of the before specified Hugh de
Gornay.'[9]

had grant by letter patent from King Henry III of a market at Aston Cantlow,
1227[3]

William married Mesceline de Braci.

13 Mesceline de Braci.

elsewhere, Masceline or Mazilia

'Vitalis Engaine and Roger Gernet, sued William de Cantelupe and Mazilia
his wife, for a carucate and a half of land in Wurle, and they also sued
Elias de Beauchamp for a carucate and a half of land in the same
vill,...'[8]

14 Hugh V de Gournay. Born ca 1148.[10] Hugh V died on 25 Sep 1214, he
was 66.[4]

of Mapledurham, Oxon., and Caister, Norfolk
assessed a fine of more than £119 1180 (Pipe Roll xxix p. 19[4])

received a grant of Wendover, Bucks. and Houghton, Beds. from King Stephen.

Companion of Richard I on the Third Crusade; at the siege of Acre, 1190
(charter to the abbey of Bec confirmed by Richard I, 1190)
opted for England at the pacification of Normandy, 1204 and had restoration
of his lands in Norfolk and elsewhere by decree of King John, 1206[4]

Sheriff of Bedfordshire and Buckinghamshire, 1214
resigned his lands to son Gerard, 1214[4]

Dugdale indicates he died in 1221 (6 Hen. 3),
'for then did the King direct his Precept to William de Cantilupe, to
restore unto Hugh his Son (Girard being dead, as it seems) all the Lands
of his Inheritance, then in his custody.'[9]

Cooke, p. 11:
"In England, among other manors, Hugh V now held, beside Mapledurham,
Bledlowe in Bucks, some restored manors in Norfolk (Caister, Cantley,
and lands in Aylsham), also Houghton in Beds and Waltham in Lincs,
while in 1210 we find him paying a fine of 700 marks for Wendover.'[4]

Hugh V married Juliana de Dammartin[10].

15 Juliana de Dammartin.[10] Born ca 1165.[10]


16 John de Port. John died in 1168.[1]

of Basing, Hants. and West Shefford, Berks.

3rd son, but first surviving (brothers Hugh and William dying d.v.p.)[1]

John married Maud[1].

17 Maud.[1]

18 William d'Orval. William died bef 1180.[1] Occupation: seigneur d'Orval.

seigneur d'Orval[1]
made a gift to Lessay, confirmed by Geoffrey of Anjou as Duke of Normandy,
1151[1]
it is theorised in CP that this is actually Richard (Ricardus) d'Orval, and
that a scribal error misidentified him in the Fundationis Historia of
Boxgrove as Rainald (Reginaldus) d'Orval - his great-grandfather.
[See CP Vol XI (St. John), p. 320n et seq.[1] ]
It is set forward here that it was probably William d'Orval, father of
Richard based on the chronology and the presumption of using the name of
Rainald d'Orval (Reginaldus) instead of William (Willelmus)

William married Muriel de St. John.

19 Muriel de St. John.

heiress (in her issue) of the Honour of Halnaker, Sussex[1]

24 Walter de Cantelou.

26 Audulf de Braci. Audulf died bef 27 Apr 1203.[12]

of Eaton Bray, co. Beds.[13] and Meole Brace, co. Salop[12]

joined Fulk fitz Warin in his rebellion against King John, 1201 - returned
to the King's peace prior to his death (Eyton, Vol. VI, pp. 351-2)[12]

called a 'cousin' of Fulk fitz Warin in the FitzWarin Chronicle [nature of
relationship not defined][12]

elsewhere 'Adulf' [Adelolf ?]

'Adolfus de Bracheio witnessed a charter (ca. 1164) by Walter Giffard
addressed to all his men, French and English.'[14]

Audulf married NN.

27 NN.

28 Hugh IV de Gournay. Born ca 1094.[10] Hugh IV died ca 1180,
he was 86.[4] Occupation: seigneur de Gournay.

of Mapledurham, Oxon. and Caister, Norfolk;
founded a chapter of the nuns of Fontevrault at Vallee de la Bataille,
after 1130[4]

rebelled against Henry I, pardoned ca. 1119
' acted as one of Henry's lieutenants in an effort to keep the peace in
Normandy after the death of the king.', 1135[15]

bef 1147 when Hugh IV was 53, he married Melisende de Coucy[10],
possibly before leaving on Crusade

29 Melisende de Coucy.[10]

called 'Millicent de Marla' by A. H. Cooke[4]

30 Aubri II de Dammartin. Aubri II died on 20 Sep 1200.[16]
Occupation: count of Dammartin.

Aubri II married Maud of Clermont[17].

31 Maud of Clermont.[17] Maud died aft Oct 1200.[16]


32 Henry de Port. Henry died ca 1153.[18]

of Basing, Hants. and West Shefford, Berks.
witness to Henry I's coronation charter, 1100; Sheriff of Hants. prior to 1107
founded the prior of Sherborne as a cell of the abbey of St.
Vigor-de-Cerisy (in the Bessin, Normandy)[1]

Henry married Hawise[1].

33 Hawise.[1]

36 Hugh d'Orval. Hugh died bef 1151.[1] Occupation: seigneur d'Orval.

38 Roger de St. John. Roger died ca 1130.[19]

lord of the Honour of Halnaker, de jure uxoris[1]

'Roger de Sancto Johanne' (DD pp. 690-91)[19]

'... some 140 knights of the familia [of Henry I], led by the brothers Roger
and John of Saint-Jean and entrusted with defending La Motte
Gautier-de-Clinchamps, surrendered to Fulk of Anjou in July 1118 after
a siege of eight days.' [Hollister, p. 258][15]

bef 1121 Roger married Cecily de la Haie[1].[19]

39 Cecily de la Haie.[1]

heiress of the honour of Halnaker, Sussex (DD pp. 690-91)[19]

52 Audulf de Braci.

of Eaton Bray, co. Beds.[13] and Meole Brace, co. Salop

elsewhere called 'Arnulf'

evidently made a gift to the priory of St. Faith in Longueville
[confirmed by charter of Henry II together with others, 1155][14]

56 Gerard de Gournay.[20] Gerard died ca 1104.[4] Occupation: seigneur de
Gournay-en-Bray.

seigneur de Gournay[20]
held manor of Castre [Caister], Norfolk
held to have participated in the First Crusade, under Robert of Normandy[4]

Gerard married Edith de Warenne.

57 Edith de Warenne.

heiress of the manor of Mapledurham, Oxon. [or had same as her maritagium][4]

she m. lstly Gerard de Gournay,
2ndly Drew de Monceaux[21]

58 Thomas de Coucy. Thomas died ca 1131 in Laon.[22] Occupation: lord of
Coucy and Marle.

sieur de Coucy, and also Marle (inherited through mother); member of the
First Crusade (with estranged father)

slain in combat by Raoul de Beaugency, comte de Vermandois[22]

Thomas married Melisende de Crecy.

59 Melisende de Crecy.

2nd wife[23]

parentage as provided by Ed Mann and Alan B. Wilson

60 Aubri I de Dammartin. Aubri I died aft 1181.[16] Occupation: count of
Dammartin-en-Goele.

chamberlain of Dammartin

ancestry given, and identification as Chamberlain (not Count) of Dammartin
as provided by Jean-Noel Mathieu, and in which Michel Bur and Todd A.
Farmerie concur[24]

Aubri I married NN[16].

61 NN.[16]

tentative: identification not certain, per T. A. Farmerie[25]

62 Renaud II of Clermont. Renaud II died bef 1162.[16] Occupation: count
of Clermont-en-Beauvaisis.

2nd husband of Clemence de Bar[25]

ca 1140 Renaud II married Clemence of Bar[16].[26]

63 Clemence of Bar.[16] Clemence died aft 20 Jan 1183.[16]

' later in life, as wife of Renaud de Clermont, still went by the title
Countess of Dammartin'[25]

she m. lstly Lancelin de Dammartin,
2ndly Renaud de Clermont[25]


1. "The Complete Peerage," G. E. Cokayne, 1910 -
The Complete Peerage of England Scotland Ireland Great Britain and the
United Kingdom.
2. Brian Timms, "The Barons' Letter in reply to the Pope, February 1301,"
http://www.briantimms.com/baronsletter/background.htm
Seven earls and sixty five barons sealed the letter, which is now in
the Public Record Office.
3. "Gazetteer of Markets and Fairs to 1516," www.histparl.ac.uk/cmh/gaz/
4. "The Early History of Mapledurham," Alfred Hands Cooke, M.A., Sc.D.,
Oxfordshire Record Society, Oxford: Oxfordshire Record Society, 1925,
*orig. cite by Timothy Powys-Lybbe,
[ ], p. 11 cited by T. Powys-Lybbe (re: Hugh
V de Gournay).
5. "The Manors of Suffolk: Notes on Their History and Devolution," W. A.
Copinger, M.A., LL.D., F.S.A., London: T. F. Unwin, 1905-1911, 7 Vols.
6. "J. Horsfall Turner," Ancient Bingley: or Bingley, Its History and Scenery,
Bingley, Yorks. : Thomas Harrison and Sons, 1897, Cantilupe: pp. 66 et
seq.,
scan copy provided by Beryl Thompson, Kambah, Australia,
www.pcug.org.au/~bthompso/bingley/bingleyy.pdf
7. "The History and Antiquities of the County of Leicester," John Nichols,
F.S.A., London: Printed By and For John Nichols, 1795, Vol. I, Appendix
XIII: Chartulary of the Honour of Segrave, p. 119, charters of Thomas de
Birkin, William de Flamborough and Nicholas de Anesty, of lands in
Pickwell
and Leesthorpe, co. Leics. to Stephen de Segrave, Vol. II, Pt. II (Gartre
Hundred), p. 488 re: grant of 'Boggeden' and Haverburgh to William de
Cantelou, 1237;, pp. 531 et seq., Burton Overy (family of Hugh de
Meinill),
p. 768 et seq., manors of Pickwell and Leesthorpe (Camville and Curzon),
Vol. III, Pt. I (East Gascote Hundred) - 1800; p. 62 et seq., Barrow;, pp.
301 et seq., Launde priory;, pp. 332 et seq., Whadborough (charters of
Fulk Fitz Warin and family), pp. 353 et seq., Prestwould; pp. 363 et seq.,
Burton on the Wolds.
8. Todd A. Farmerie, "Re: FitzUrse and de Cantelou/Cantilupe," May 11, 2002,
, citing (1) Bracton's Note Book, De Banco
Roll,
4 Hen III and (2) a plea roll pedigree.
9. "The Baronage of England," William Dugdale, Norroy King of Arms, Tho.
Newcomb [reprint Georg Verlag, New York], London, 1675 [reprint New
York, 1977].
10. "Stevens/Southworth Medieval Database," James Allen Stevens, Rootsweb,
created 14 May 2000 [extracted 25 April 2001],
www.gendex.com/users/jast/D0026/G0000090.html
11. Richard Borthwick, "Cantelou Connections," Jan 8, 1997,
, citing I. J. Sanders, English Baronies.
12. "Antiquities of Shropshire," The Rev. R. W. Eyton, London: John Russell
Smith, 1855, Vol. 5 - p. 242 (Ludlow), pp. 132 (Banaster) and 133-142
(Barony of Hastings), Vol. 6 - pp. 350-359 (Meole Brace and de Bracy).
13. R. Leutner, "Re: De Cantilupe, Cantelupe, Cantelou," Oct 15, 1995,
.
14. Ed Dunn, "The Bracey Surname,"
http://freepages.family.rootsweb.com/~eddunn/bracey/
extracted 24 May 2002, citing Calendar of Documents Preserved in France
Illustrative, of the History of Great Britain & Ireland, ed. J. Horace
Round, (London, 1899) Vol. I: AD 918-1206, pp. 76-77, 145 [Braci].
15. "Henry I," C. Warren Hollister, New Haven: Yale University Press, 2001,
[English Monarchs Series].
16. Leo van de Pas, "William Fiennes, Sire de Fiennes et de Tingry," 3 Feb
1998, ,
17. "Fiennes," G. Edward Allen, Society of Medieval Genealogy (@rootsweb.com),
25 Mar 1999 ( ).
18. "English Baronies: A Study of Their Origin and Descent, 1086-1327," I. J.
Sanders, Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1960.
19. "Domesday Descendants," K. S. B. Keats-Rohan, The Boydell Press,
Woodbridge,
2002, cited by Rosie Bevan, 'Re: de Stuteville' Jul 2, 2002, p. 723
20. "The Magna Carta Sureties, 1215," Frederick L. Weis, Th. D., Gen Pub Co.,
Baltimore, MD, 5th ed., 1997 (W. L. Sheppard Jr & David Faris).
21. Douglas Richardson, "Re: Dammartin," May 20, 2002,
, cites J. G. Jenkins, ed., Cartulary of
Missenden Abbey,, W. A. Copinger, Manors of Suffolk, 3 (1909): 277-278
and other records re: Gerard de Gournay.
22. "The Life of King Louis," Abbe Suger, pub. by Paul Halsall, Internet
Medieval Source Book, October 1999, www.
23. Douglas Richardson, "Re: Wife of Hugh II de Gournay," September 12, 2002,
, includes biography text by Douglas
Richardson
for Hugh de Gournay (d. 1181).
24. Todd A. Farmerie, "Dammartin Counts," September 16, 2001,
, Jean-Noel Mathieu,, ""Recherches sur le
Premiers Comtes de Dammartin"," Paris et Ile-de-France: Memoires..,
vol. 47 (1996), pp 7-59.
25. Todd A. Farmerie, "Dammartin/Basset marriage," 4 February 1997,
, followup message: Stewart Baldwin
( ), rootsweb.com (Todd: ).
26. Paul Theroff, "House of Bar," Paul Theroff's Dynastic Genealogy Files,
worldroots.clicktron.com/brigitte/theroff/bar.txt








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