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Archiver > GEN-MEDIEVAL > 1998-07 > 0901772634


From: Reedpcgen< >
Subject: Tuberville heirs [LONG], was Re: from Charlemagne to Arnold (?)
Date: 30 Jul 1998 04:23:54 GMT


I thought I'd better add a few more details to my post about the Gamages and
Tuberville heirs. Some records add a William Gamage as son of William Gamage
and his wife Sarah Tuberville. This WIlliam would be father of the Gilbert
Tuberville (d. 1382) who married Lettice Seymour about 1363. Their eldest son
Roger Gamage was born about 1364 (aged 18 at his father's death in 1382), but
he died 4 August 1382 [sic] leaving his younger brother William Gamage as his
heir, aged 11 in 1382 (born about 1371). This also matches the age given for
him in 1411/12 (40 years and more). The descent from Tuberville is certain,
however, as the Gamages inherited Coity over the objections of a number of
other heirs, including Sir John St. John, seneschall of Gower.

As is the case with many of the Welsh lords, they were given knighthood freely
(I suspect to honor them in payment for loyalty on the Welsh frontier), but
they were not given the lands one would expect of an English knight. Further,
the main lords of the whole region were the Marcher Earls and Dukes, such as
Norfolk, Pembroke, etc. So unless the heir of the Duke/Earl was a minor in the
king's ward, there would be no inquisition post mortem taken. So it is very
difficult to trace many of the early Welsh lines with certainty.

That being said, however, I am now able to present several of these lines
correctly for the first time. Everyone else (including Clark and Bartrum) has
them hopelessly muddled and confused. I would be grateful to receive any
comments or additions on the following:

Payne Tuberville died about 1318 in his prime, leaving Gwenllian Talbot as his
executrix. Their eldest son Sir Gilbert died by 1344, leaving one son and
heir, also named Gilbert, who died in 1349 without issue, his heir being his
uncle Richard, aged 40. It seems the elder Gilbert was the first child,
Richard the youngest. Richard succeeded to Coyty, and enfeoffed the manor and
lands, receiving them back to himself and his wife Hawise, with remainder to
the various male heirs of his sisters. There were four sisters, (1) Katherine,
(2) Margaret, (3) Agnes, and (4) Sarah Tuberville. The Gamage line has already
been explained. As to the other three daughters:

(1) Katherine Tuberville married Sir Roger Berkerolles. Sir Roger died in
1351, leaving a son and heir, Lawrence, aged 14 (b. ca. 1337) and two
daughters, Gwenllian/Wenthelan and Sarah. Lawrence was knighted and married
(to Elizabeth ---) by 1369, but died without issue 18 Oct. 1411. His heirs
were Sir Edward Stradling [m. Jane Beaufort], aged 22/19 in 1411/1412 (b. ca.
1390), son of Sir WIlliam Stradling [m. Isabel St. Barbe], son of Sir Edward
Stradling [liv. 1367] of St. Donats, who married the said Gwenllian
Berkerolles, daughter of Katherine Tuberville; and John Stradling, aged
60/50/40 [depending on the source] in 1411/12, son of Sarah, Gwenllian's sister
[the name of Sarah's husband is not given]. It also appears that Gwenllian had
another brother, named Gilbert de Berkerolles, but that he died without
surviving issue before 1411. This line is of interest because these
Stradlings were ancestral to Elizabeth Coytemore [and apparently also Capt.
William Poole of Taunton, Mass,] who is ancestral to President John Quincy
Adams and others.

(2) Margaret Tuberville, second daughter and coheir of Payne and Gwenllian,
married SIr Richard de Stackpole, of Stackpole, co. Pembroke (he held 5
knights' fees). They were parents of Richard de Stackpole, whose daughter and
heiress Isabel/Elizabeth [the names were then interchangeable] Stackpole
married, as first wife, Sir Rhys Griffen [Sir Rhys Ieuanc (b. 1325, d. 1380),
son of Sir Rhys Hen ap Gruffudd (d. 1356) by Joan de Somerville]. Their
daughter and heir, Joan Griffith [according to English records pertaining to
their landholdings in co. Stafford; the descendants continued to use the
surname Griffith], married Sir Richard Vernon (she was aged 40 and more in
1411). This line has been confusing because everyone has messed up the
marriages. Sir Rhys (d. 1380) married, second, Margaret Zouche, who survived
him and married William Walsall/Marshall. It was by Margaret that Sir Rhys was
father of his heir Thomas (d. 1431, m. Ann Blount) and John Griffith. Joan was
heiress of her mother (sole heir of the Stackpole line), but the sons born to
the second wife became male heirs of her father's family. This line is of
interest as SIr Richard Vernon and John de Stackpole were ancestors of the
immigrant Robert Abell, the later Corbets of Moreton Corbet, and the later
Mainwarings of Ightfield.

(3) Agnes Tuberville, third daughter and coheir of Payne Tuberville and
Gwenllian Talbot, married SIr John de la Bere of Weobley, co. Hereford, and
Marcose, co. Glamorgan. Their son and heir John de la Bere seems to be the one
who died in 1380, leaving a son John aged 15 in 1398 [or at the death of the
father in 1380?]. The confusing point is that Sir John de la Bere of Weobley
died Sunday after the feast of St. Matthew the Apostle 13 Richard II, but his
inquisition is grouped in copy [which includes two other inquisitions for men
who died ca. 1370 and 1385] copied in 1398. It would make sense if the heir
John de la Bere was aged 15 in 1380 (b. ca. 1365), because if he were only 15
in 1398 (b. ca. 1383) he would only be about 19 when his son and heir Thomas de
la Bere was born. Thomas was aged 9 in 1411, when he was found to be one of
the heirs of Sir Lawrence Berkerolles. But he died without issue leaving as
heirs Isabel/Elizabeth de la Bere [b. say 1335-40], and her sister, wife of Sir
Elias Basset of Beaupre, daughters of John de la Bere. Elizabeth de la Bere
had married Sir John St. John of Fonmon, escheator of Gower, who was taking the
profits of the de la Bere lands (and dead by Aug, 1373). They were parents of
Sir John St. John, MP, b. ca. 1360-66, d. 1424, m. by Easter 1395 [claimant in
1421], father of Sir Oliver St. John (d. 1437), who married Margaret Beauchamp
of Bletsoe and was ancestor of the St. John family of Bletsoe and Lydiard
Tregoze, from whom descend several immigrants.

pcr

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