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From: (Douglas Richardson)
Subject: Re: Maud Fitz Alan, wife of Robert de Brus, Earl of Carrick
Date: 15 Dec 2002 12:37:45 -0800
References: <5cf47a19.0212090118.e7d284c@posting.google.com> <5cf47a19.0212131809.6d67a118@posting.google.com> <5cf47a19.0212150116.b3d6349@posting.google.com>
Dear Newsgroup ~
I just had a long discussion with Andrew MacEwen, of Maine, the
resident expert on all things Scottish. Andrew indicated he had a
copy of the book, Scottish Kings: a Revised Chronology of Scottish
History, by A.H. Dunbar, published in 1906, which source I mentioned
in passing in my previous post. He said Dunbar is quite good, as he
usually lists his sources for his statements.
Regarding the marriage of Robert de Brus and Isabel of Mar, which
Dunbar dates as having taken place c. 1295, he (Dunbar) gives several
sources. One is Fordun, a 14th Century chronicler. The other is a
chronicle found in the book, Book of Pluscarden, edited by Felix J.H.
Skene, published in two volumes in 1877 and 1880.
Fortunately, Andrew MacEwen had a copy of the Book of Pluscarden.
Volume 1 contains the Latin text of a 14th century chronicle which
Andrew did not identify. On page 128, it states in Latin that Robert
de Brus married (1st) Isabel, daughter of the Earl of Mar, by whom he
had a daughter, Marjorie. No mention is made of Robert de Brus'
marriage to Maud Fitz Alan. Robert de Brus is also stated to have
married (2nd) Elizabeth de Burgh.
Andrew imagines that similar statements will be found in Fordun, who
dates from the same time period. Whether these chroniclers both used
the same source as their authority for Robert de Brus' marriage to
Isabel of Mar is not known at this time.
Regardless, Andrew gives weight to the statement that Robert de Brus
married Isabel of Mar, as the chronicler notes that Robert de Brus'
sister, Christian, was married Isabel's brother, Gratney of Mar. This
would be a double alliance between the two families, which alliances
were quite common in this period. As a general rule, such alliances
were created when the children to be married were quite young. As
such, Robert de Brus could well have been married to Isabel of Mar
when he was 14 (c. 1288), not c. 1295 as usually thought was the case.
I asked Andrew if he accepted the chroniclers' accounts as being
reliable. He said they made some mistakes, but, on the whole, they
are thought to be trustworthy. Andrew felt the double alliance made
sense, as this was a common practice in the period.
Regarding Margery de Brus' birthdate of c. 1295/1296 (as estimated by
Barrow), Andrew thought Margery would not have been a young child when
she was caged by King Edward I. He said even King Edward I had his
limits of decency and cruelty. Rather, he thought Margery was more
than likely a young adult at this time. Barrow, on the other hand,
thought Margery was at best ten or eleven, which would make her still
a child. If Andrew's concept of English civility is correct, then
this would move Margery's birth back in time at least a couple of
years. If so, it would take Margery's birth out of the time period
her father was married to Maud Fitz Alan.
The upshot of this discussion is basically you have two 14th Century
Scottish chronicles, both of which mention Robert de Brus' marriage to
Isabel of Mar, as opposed to two contemporary records which mention
Robert de Brus' marriage to Maud Fitz Alan. The question is: Did
Robert de Brus have only one wife, or two?
Given Andrew's observation regarding the importance of the double
alliance between the Brus-Mar family, I'm inclined to believe that a
marriage to Isabel of Mar occured. However, if so, the marriage
predates the date (c. 1295) that historians have usually given to
Robert de Brus' marriage to Isabel of Mar. Likewise, if Marjorie is
Isabel's daughter, that means she was born earlier than 1295/6, which
is when the historians place her birth.
If Marjorie was born in say 1293, she would have been 13 when she was
caged by King Edward I. He held her in captivity until 1314, thereby
delaying the time a woman of this period would have married. After
her release in 1314, she was married the next year (1315) to Walter
Stewart. Marjorie's delayed marriage may well be why historians have
thought her parents' marriage took place in the mid-1290's, as opposed
to the early 1290's.
Andrew MacEwen cautioned being careful to identify which Robert de
Brus was lord of Annandale and Earl of Carrick in this period. He
felt it was entirely possible that Robert de Brus the Competitor
resigned the lordship of Annandale in 1292 to his grandson, Robert de
Brus (later Robert I, King of Scotland). He said this was an
extraordinary period in Scottish history. He said this action would
not surprise him at all.
Reviewing the above discussion, it is clear we have the "evidence" of
later date 14th century chronicles to weigh against contemporary
original documents. The chronicles mention a wife, Isabel, and no
wife, Maud. The contemporary records mention a wife, Maud, and no
wife, Isabel. In the normal scheme of things, the process of cross
evaluation between these two record sources should have been done by
historians long ago. Andrew MacEwen's feeling is that the chronicles
are usually trustworthy and that the double alliance mentioned in them
between the Brus and Mar families lends credence to the marriage of
Robert de Brus and Isabel of Mar. However, he readily accepts the
possibility that Robert de Brus may have had another wife, Maud Fitz
Alan, who has been overlooked by historians. Andrew is fully aware of
the extensive destruction of original Scottish records for this time
period. As such, there are some things for which we only have partial
knowledge.
Lastly, Andrew reminded me that Isabel of Mar's mother, Ellen (or
Helen), wife of Donald, Earl of Mar, was NOT the daughter of Llywelyn
ap Iowerth, Prince of North Wales, as commonly assumed. Earl Donald
was married to a daughter of Llywelyn but this was evidently an early
first marriage. Isabel's mother, Ellen (or Helen), was evidently a
much younger 2nd wife. I believe Andrew plans to publish an article
on this point some time in the future.
My thanks go to Andrew MacEwen for his useful comments and
observations and also for checking material in his personal library
for me. Andrew is a true gentleman and a scholar. Hats off to Mr.
MacEwen.
Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah
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