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From: "John P. Ravilious" < >
Subject: Re: CP Addition: Eleanor de Montagu, wife of Sir John de Dinham
Date: 19 Dec 2005 11:59:34 -0800
References: <1b9.21d39dcd.30d643f7@aol.com> <1134947663.098559.169650@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> <1135022154.320400.125770@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
In-Reply-To: <1135022154.320400.125770@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>


Monday, 19 December, 2005


Hello All,

This is Part I -B of the detailed AT for Muriel Dinham (the
original ' Part I ' was too large, changing Google to Gaggle....).

Cheers,

John

___________________________________

Muriel (Dinham) Hastings: Ahnentafel (part I - B of IV)


8 Sir John de Dinham.
Born on 14 Sep 1295.[9]
died bef 15 Apr 1332, he was 36.[9]

knt., of Hartland, Devon, Buckland Denham, Somerset and Cardinham,
Cornwall[9]
3rd Lord Dinham

succeeded his father as a minor, and ward of the King:
Assignment [ " to Thomas, bishop of Exeter, Hugh, abbot of Hayles,
William
de Bereford and Walter de Aylesbury, executors of the will of Edmund,
earl
of Cornwall, the king's kinsman, in part payment of the king's
indebtedness
to the earl of 9,480 1/2 marks 10 1/4d.," ] of custody of his lands
during
the minority of his heir, made at Peebles [Scot.] 2 Aug. 1301:
' from 8 September next, and during the minority of the heirs, of two
parts
of the lands late of Joyce de Dynham, tenant in chief, together with
the
marriage of the heirs, worth 2,000 marks; saving to the king knights'
fees,
&c., as above.
By K[ing]., on the information of W., bishop of Coventry and
Lichfield.
Mandate in pursuance to Walter de Gloucestre, escheator beyond Trent.
Mandate to Margery, late the wife of the said Joyce, to deliver the
body
of the heir of the said Joyce, which is said to be in her custody, to
the
said executors to be married. ' [CPR 1292-1301, p. 603[32]]

assessment of a feudal aid, for his manor of Buckland Denham in the
hundred
of Kynemerdeston, Somerset in 1303:
' Johannes de Denham, heres Jocelini de Denham, tenet terciam partem
un. f.
in Boclaund et est in custodia domini regis ' [Feudal Aids IV:310[22]]

came of age, September 1316:
'A few years after the death of Sir Oliver de Dynham, his son, Josce's
son and heir, John de Dynham, came of age. This took place in 1316.
Shortly before John obtained livery of his father's lands, Hugh de
Courtenay (grandson of Isabel de Vere) wrote a letter to William de
Airmyn dated c. September 1316, in which he requested assistance for
his kinsman, John de Dynham, now of age, in obtaining seisin of his
lands [Reference: List of Ancient Correspondence, Lists and Indexes,
No. XV, reprinted 1968, pg. 552; cf. Index to Ancient Correspondence
of the Chancery and the Exchequer, 1 (Lists and Indexes, Supplementary
Series, No. XV) (reprinted 1969), pp. 308, 351]. The King
subsequently took John de Dynham's homage, and he had livery of his
father's lands, 18 October 1316.'[33]

~ NOTE: this evidence supports his relationship to the Courtenay family
as
shown (based on common descent from his paternal grandmother, Isabel
de Vere)

' Jn. de Dynham ' , entered into agreement with Sir Otto de Bodrugan as
to the advowson of the church of La Roche, recognized as below to John
de Dinham:
Agreement dated at Lostwythiel, 6 November 1318 :
1. Jn. de Dynham
2. Sir Otto de Bodrugan, Kt.
(Rec. on recent vacancy of church of La Roche in diocese of Exeter by
death
of Clement de la roche there was a controversy on the right of
patronage
between him and Sir Otto de Bodrugan, Knight. Latter brought writ of
quare
impedit against him in the King's court)
(2) recognised (1)'s right to advowson in court.
(1) had to pay costs awarded.
Alternate sealing clause. ' - A2A, Cornwall Record Office: Edgcumbe
of
Cotehele and Mount Edgcumbe [ME/1540 - ME/3660], ME/2905[3]

' Johan de Dynham ', summoned for military service 20 February 1324/5 -
to
appear at Portsmouth 'mounted and armed' - in France, by letters under
privy seal of King Edward II [ Foedera, pp. 591-2[34]]

IPM of John de Dynham, held at Exeter, 20 June 1332[26]

cf. CP IV:372-3[9]
Chope pp. 432-3[26]

ca 1310 when Sir John was 14, he married Margaret de Botreaux.[9]


9 Margaret de Botreaux. Margaret died bef 16 Jan 1361.[9]

Genealogics #I00429089[4]

' Margaret Botreaux ' as identified by Dr. Hannes Kleineke.[35]

record of a petition to the Pope, Jul 1346:
' Margaret, late the wife of John de Dynham, knight. For plenary
remission at the hour of death to herself and her legitimate sons,
John de Dynham, knight, and Oliver de Dynham. Granted.
[ Avignon, Kal. Aug. ] ' [Papal Petitions I:114[21], cites f. 117]

assessment of a feudal aid, for his manor of Buckland Denham in the
hundred
of Kynemersdon, Somerset in 1346 (which she held in dower):
' De Margareta, que fuit uxor Johannis de Denham, pro iij. parte un. f.
in
Bouclond quam Johannes de Denham et heres Johanne de Denham quondam
tenuerunt ibidem.......xiij. s. iiij. d. ' [Feudal Aids IV:355[22]]

cf. CP IV:373-4[9]
J. P. Ravilious '[36]
H. Kleineke [35],[37]


10 Sir Thomas de Courtenay.
died in 1356.

knight, of Woodhuish and Dunterton, Devon and Wootton Courtenay and
Cricket Malherbe, Somerset[38]

younger son, Thomas was named as heir to brother Robert in provisions
for remainder in Woodhuish and other lands [ his father Hugh,
deforciant
in a fine of 8 Edw II [Trinity term, 1315 ]:
" with remainder, after their deaths, to Robert son of (3)
and his heirs of body; in default of such heirs, remainder to
Thomas, Robert's brother, and his heirs."
- A2A, Cornwall Record Office: Arundell of Lanherne and Trerice
[AR/1/528 - AR/1/1121], AR/1/643[3]

record of a petition to the Pope, Jul 1346:
' Thomas de Courtenay, knight, legitimate brother of the earl of
Devon. For plenary remission at the hour of death to himself and
Muriel his wife. Granted. Avignon, Kal. Aug. ' [Papal
Petitions
I:114[21], cites f. 117]

Grant dated 7 June 1355:29 Edward III :
' Grant by Thomas de Cortenay the Elder, knight, to Roger Torel of all
his
messuages, etc., which he had in Offewill and Everforde in the hundred
of
Colyton (Devon), with the advowson of Offewill and of all his
messuages,
etc., which he had in West Raddon and Allirford in the hundred of
Lyfton
(Devon). Done at Carswill Regis on the Sunday before St. Barbabas, 29
Edward III.
WITNESSES: John Dy[n]ham, William Auarle, William Dounfravyle, John de
Kelly, Robert de Courtenay, Robert Morgan, Richard Newy, John Kelly of
Southwyck, and others. With 1 seal (2.4 cm) of red wax (damaged);
bearing
an armorial sheild and the legend: SI ... HOME DE COURT ... ' [
Harvard
English Deeds Coll. , Deed 174 - 29 Edward III. 1 item : paper ; 9 x
26 cm. HOLLIS number: - AOA6353[23] ]

bef 27 Aug 1337 Sir Thomas married Muriel de Moels.[29]


11 Muriel de Moels. Born ca 1322.[9]

eldest daughter and coheiress;
received her purparty of her father's lands (including Kingskerswell,
Devon) following Thomas de Courtenay having done fealty, 6 Oct 1337[9]

she was living in 1346 [record of a petition by her husband to the
Pope,
granted 1 Aug 1346 - Papal Petitions I:114 [21], cites f. 117]


12 William de Montagu.
Born in 1301 in Salisbury.[39]
died on 30 Jan 1343, he was 42.[9]
Occupation: Earl of Salisbury.

of Shipton Montague, Somerset
3rd Lord Montagu
adherent of young Edward III in palace revolution of 1330
summoned to Parliament from 18 Feb 1330/31.[9]

created Earl of Salisbury 16 March 1336/7
Marshal of England[40]

cf. CP IX:82-3, note (f)[9]

abt 1327 when William was 26, he married Katherine de Grandison.[39]


13 Katherine de Grandison.
Born abt 1304.[39]
died on 23 Apr 1349, she was 45.[9]

youngest daughter (CP:XI:387[9]]


14 Thomas de Monthermer.
Born on 4 Oct 1301.[9],[8]
died in k. at Battle of Sluys on 24 Jun 1340, he was 38.[9],[1]
Occupation: Lord Monthermer.

2nd Lord Monthermer (not summ. to Parliament)[9]

' On 4 July 1325 he and his brother Edward made an
agreement as to certain manors in which both had an
interest; Thomas was to have Stokenham and Edward
Warblington, &c., and on 11 July Thomas granted
Edward a rent of £ 20 from Stokenham. ' [CP IX:143,
and note (c), citing Cal. Close Rolls, 1323-27, p. 492[9] ]
heir of his brother Edward

cf. CP IX:143[9],
VCH (Hampshire) III:134-136[31]

aft Mar 1322 when Thomas was 20, he married Margaret de Braose.


15 Margaret de Braose.
died bef 27 May 1349.[9]

' Margaret widow of Thomas Monthermer held Warblington in dower till
her
death in May, 1349, when it was inherited by her daughter
Margaret wife of Sir John Montagu, kt.,..'[VCH (Hampshire)
III:134-136[31]]

her identification as Margaret, daughter of Piers de Braose by Douglas
Richardson:
' A while back, I discussed evidence regarding the possible identity of
Margaret, wife successively of Henry le Tyeys, Knt. (died 1322), 2nd
Lord Tyeys, and Thomas de Monthermer, Knt. (died 1340), 2nd Lord
Monthermer. Margaret's identity is of special interest to medieval
historians and genealogists, as her 2nd husband, Sir Thomas de
Monthermer, was a grandson of King Edward I of England. By Margaret
and Thomas' daughter, Margaret de Monthermer, wife of John Montagu,
Knt., the Monthermer family is ancestral to many living descendants
today.
In my earlier post (see copy below), I noted that both Margaret and
her
first husband, Sir Henry le Tyeys, had various associations with the
family of Sir Peter de Brewes (died 1312), of Tetbury, Gloucestershire,
and his wife, Agnes de Clifford. Briefly, I found that sometime prior
to 1322, Henry le Tyeys conveyed a messuage to Peter de Brewes' widow,
Agnes de Clifford. Also, I found Henry le Tyeys' widow, Margaret,
associated with Agnes (de Clifford) de Brewes in a record shortly
before Margaret's marriage to Thomas de Monthermer. I queried if
Margaret le Tyeys might not have been a daughter of Peter de Brewes and
his wife, Agnes de Clifford. Such an arrangement is certainly possible
chronologically, as Peter de Brewes and his wife, Agnes, are known to
have married in 1300. Henry and Margaret le Tyeys were evidently
married in or about 1316, at which date, Margaret's age still required
that she needed a guardian. This implies Margaret was born in or after
1300. Also, it is known that Henry le Tyeys had the wardship and
marriage of Peter de Brewes' heirs, and thus he would have been in a
position to easily have married Peter de Brewes' daughter, if one was
available.
In the intervening time since my original post, I've determined
that
the personal seal of Margaret le Tyeys has survived, it being attached
to a document dated 1323 during the period of her first widowhood. The
seal is described in detail by Roger Ellis in his interesting book,
Catalogue of Personal Seals in the Public Record Office, vol. 2 (1981),
pg. 108:

"P2161 Margaret widow of Henry le Tyas (Tyays) 1323

In a cusped quatrefoil, hung from a triple bush, two shields of arms:
(L) a chevron [TYEYS], the field hatched, and (R) crusilly (?) a lion
rampant, queue fourchy.

SIGIL[LUM] MARGA/RET ... YAYS (Lom)

Round, c. 23, red, tongue. Good impression but edge much damaged.
E2113/25.

We see above that Margaret le Tyeys' arms on her personal seal are
crusilly a lion rampant, queue fourchy. These arms are, of course, the
well known arms of the baronial Brewes family. As such, it appears
that Margaret was a Brewes as suspected, and doubtless the daughter of
Sir Peter de Brewes.'[41]

she m. 1stly Henry le Teyes, Lord Teyes (ex. 1321) [1],
2ndly Thomas de Monthermer

cf. Richardson pp. 575-6, 814-5[42]


[ to be continued - see Part II ]



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