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Archiver > GEN-MEDIEVAL > 1997-11 > 0880332992
From: "Todd A. Farmerie" < >
Subject: Re: Champernowne
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 19:56:32 -0500
Richard Borthwick wrote:
>
> At 06:35 PM 21/11/97 -0500, you wrote:
> >
> >This Henry Champernowne of Ilfracombe represented the senior line of the
> >family, being son of William, son of an earlier Henry, son of Oliver,
> >son of Henry, son of Jordan, who married Mabel of Gloucester and is the
> >earliest proven ancestor of the family. (She was daughter of Robert,
> >younger son of Earl Robert of Gloucester, and hence great-granddaughter
> >of Henry I. This corrects Ancestral Roots, which shows her as daughter
> >of Earl Robert. It also creates a bit of a chronological problem,
> >suggesting that Henry may not have been her son, but I don't want to get
> >too far afield.)
>
> The above is also a correction of Loyd in *Origins of some Anglo-Norman
> Families* p.26 where it is said that Mabira (living about 1170 when she
> confirms a gift of her son Jordan) was the sister of earl William and
> daughter of earl Robert. Loyd does not say that Mabira was the mother of
> Henry. He only says that she was the mother of Jordan and that Jordan had a
> brother Richard. A Henry de Ch. held seven knights fees of the old feoffment
> of Olver de Tracy in 1166 and a Jordan de Ch. held two knights fees of earl
> William in the same year. Loyd makes no mention of these two being
> brothers/half-brothers. In the corrected account is Robert, Mabira's father,
> that Robert son of earl Robert ("query legit.") who is named in a charter
> ca.1160 and addressed in a writ of Henry II as "castellan of Gloucester" [CP
> V:686 note (b)]?
Presumably yes. The source for this new identification is a volume on
Redvers Charters published in 1994 or 95 by the Devon Record Society.
(The mother of Mabel/Mabira and wife of Robert de Gloucester was Hawise,
daughter of Earl Baldwin I de Redvers.) The question of Henry's
maternity is one of chronology. Adding an extra generation between Earl
Robert and Mabira (as well as the reasonably well characterized
chronology of Redvers) would seem to make Mabira too young to be mother
of Henry (based on his first recorded acts). Note also that many
pedigrees insert another Henry at this point in the Ilfracombe
pedigree. This is pure guesswork, there being an otherwise
unidentifiable Isabella de Champernowne witnessing in connection with
Champernowne of Ilfracombe lands, a somewhat longlived Henry, and in the
parallel line (descended from Jordan) there was an extra generation.
Benson suggested splitting the one Henry into two, and making one of
them marry Isabella. Among other things, the Redvers work makes it
clear that Benson had already split one Jordan into two, Mabira of
Gloucs. wife of Jordan "I" and Mabel de Soligny (or was it de Soliers? -
I am going from memory) wife of Jordan "II" being the same, and hence so
was her husband.
ta
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