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Archiver > GEN-MEDIEVAL > 1995-09 > 0811557547
From: Nat Taylor < >
Subject: Re: Sancha de Ayala (again)
Date: Wed, 20 Sep 1995 00:39:07 GMT
School has now started and I have fallen behind by a note here. In
response to earlier discussion of the Ayala genealogical manuscripts, I
accept Todd's arguments (use of "nieto", etc.) that the variant MSS are
not necessarily mutually contradictory, given a descent of Maria
"Rodriguez de Guzman" from Diego Garcia de Toledo as in Rodriguez
Marquina. I am keenly interested in these manuscripts and hope to pursue
them further at some other time--it remains to be seen whether all the
existing derivative manuscripts are consistent with this filiation for Dia
Gomez de Toledo/Guzman, but as Rodriguez Marquina accepts Dia Gomez'
parentage from Pedro Suarez as given, Rubincam can definitely be chucked
on that point.
If Salazar y Castro had Pero Lopez de Ayala's explicit statement of Dia
Gomez' parentage on hand (and he copied it himself), then why did he get
this wrong in his own work? Bad dog!
In article <43k6fo$ >, (Todd A.
Farmerie) wrote:
> For what it's worth, there
> were the following de Toledo families, all (except maybe the first two)
> having nothing in common except being neighbors, and all attempts to trace
> them to common parentage are exercizes in invention. Names somewhat
> arbitrary: 1. Illan de Toledo - descended from a Julian/Illan, this was the
> first Toledo mozarab family to gain prominence under the christian kings,
> and some way has been invented to trace each of the other lines from this
> one in either male or female lines. 2. Alvarez de Toledo - possibly a
> branch of the former, if not ?. This family reached greatest prominance of
> the various de Toledo families. 3. Garcia de Toledo - descended from
> Abdelasis ben Lampeter. 4. de Toledo de Orgaz - descended from the
> Abd-al-Malik clan. 5. Gomez de Toledo - Sancha's family, traced by
> Rodriguez Marquina (who unfortunately does not discuss his reasons for
> making this connection) to Pedro Gomez Barrosa.
Javier Rodriguez Marquina's "Linajes Mozarabes de Toledo en los Siglos XII
y XIII," in _Genealogias mozarabes: ponencias y comunicaciones presentadas
al I Congreso Internacional de Estudios Mozarabes, Toledo, 1975_ (Toledo:
Instituto de Estudios Visigotico-Mozarabes de San Eugenio, 1981 (serie B,
no. 1)) contains most of these lines, and I am not impressed by the
presentation (it is in some ways reminiscent of Salazar y Castro, who felt
the need to derive every major noble family in the male line from royal
stock) but they do make overall a more sensible attribution of various
people styled "de Toledo" into these lineages than did Salazar y Castro.
Unfortunately, the impetus behind this collection was to document the
descent of all these lines from original "mozarabic" forbears, so there is
inevitable forcing of links. You may note on the reverse of the contents
page the pretentious seal of the "Corporation of the Noble Families of
Mozarabic knights".
These Toledan families are far from being sorted out satisfactorily. It's
too bad that Vajay's citation of the opinion of David E. Masnata y de
Quesada, Marques de Santa Ana y Santa Maria, on the marriage of Ines, dau.
of Diego Garcia de Toledo, is not backed up by any published study of the
family that's better than this one. The Garcia de Toledo/Ramirez de
Guzman alliance (if there is one) is still murky.
This notwithstanding, Rodriguez Marquina's charts do provide corroboration
of the revised Pedro Suarez de Toledo ancestry for Sancha, as well as
various allied lines.
> -----------------snip---------------------
> I think your suggestion of an ahnentafeln for Sancha may present the best
> way to work through all the lines. I'll start:
>
> 1.Sancha de Ayala, m. Walter Blount
> 2.Diego (Dia) Gomez de Toledo (de Guzman)
> 3.Ines Alfonso de Ayala
>
> OK, now it's your turn :)
OK, here we go:
4. Pedro Suarez de Toledo (I buy this)
5. Maria Rodriguez de Guzman
6. Fernan Perez de Ayala
7. Elvira Alvarez de Ceballos
---
8. Fernan Gomez de Toledo
9. Teresa Vasquez
10. Ramiro de Guzman (Juan Ramirez de Guzman?) *
11. Maria Garcia (de Toledo) *
12. Pero Lopez de Ayala, +1328
13. Sancha (Fernandez) Barroso
14. Diego Guttierez de Ceballos
15. Juana Garcia Carrillo
---
16. Gomez Perez, Alguacil mayor of Toledo
17. Orabuena (Gutierrez?)
18-19.--
20. ** [Juan Perez de Guzman]
21. ** [Maria Ramirez de Cifuentes]
22. Diego Garcia de Toledo, alcalde mayor of Toledo, +1322
23. Maria Garcia (?)
24. Sancho Perez de Ayala, "el Motila", +1288
25. Aldonza (de Velascuri) (but see a previous message on her)
26. Fernan Perez Barroso
27. Mencia de Sotomayor (?)
28. Ruy Gonzales de Ceballos
29. Maria Fernandez de Cabiedes
30. Garcia Gomez Carrillo, Lord of Manzuelo (fl. 1312)
31. Elvira Alvarez Osorio
*, ** 10 & 11 are as identified by Rodriguez Marquina in the table
opposite page 36. 20 and 21 are, however, as in GC (though GC's
identification of 11 is ignored). I am not entirely happy with the Guzman
ancestry above no. 10. The lineage in GC, "Guzman" (vol. 42), line 2,
seems patched together. And the tables in "Genealogias mozarabes" only
show Maria Ramirez de G's father as a "Ramiro de Guzman" (from her
patronymic) not "Juan Ramirez" as in GC. If GC is sound here, why did
Rodriguez Marquina not make this identification? And if Juan Ramirez's
wife (11) in GC seems fictitious (she doesn't fit into the Toledan
families detialed by Rodriguez Marquina), then why can we accept GC's
identification of 21? Do you have other evidence for the Guzman /
Cifuentes generations in your Alfonso IX descent?
Next generation, please? :)
Nat Taylor
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