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Archiver > GEN-MEDIEVAL > 1998-09 > 0906007034
From: Alan B. Wilson< >
Subject: Re: Lanvallei + Beauchamp + Mowbray
Date: 17 Sep 1998 04:37:14 GMT
In article < >,
(Alan B. Wilson) wrote:
> In article < >,
> (Richard Borthwick) wrote:
>
> > At 01:52 PM 13/09/98 -0700, you wrote:
> > >A while back there was an inquiry on this list concerning the parentage
> > >of Maud de Beachuamp (d. 1273), wife of Roger de Mowbray (d. 1266). The
> > >answer given at the time was that Maud was the daughter of William de
> > >Beauchamp (d. 1260) of Bedford and his wife Gunnora de Lanvaley and
> > >sister and co-heir of her brother John de Beauchamp. Citations for this
> > >included: CP IX:375-76.
> > >
> > >Using the CP IX 375-76 notes, I find that Maud was sister and co-heir of
> > >her brother Simon de Beauchamp ( a possible unintentional
> > >misidentification error of the person who posted the answer), along with
> > >her sisters: Beatrice who m (1) Thomas FitzOtes and (2) William
> > >Munchensy of Edwarstone and Ela, first wife of Baldwin Wake.
> > >
> > >This source does not state that Maud was a half-sister of Beatrice or
> > >Ela, who were I thought daughters of William de Beauchamp and Ida de
> > >Longespee. So is the marriage of William to Gunnora correct? Also to
> > >which wife does Simon belong and if the identification of Gunnora as
> > >Maud's mother is correct, then was Gunnora a daughter of William de
> > >Lanvallei of Wakerly, Essex by his wife Gunnora, daughter of Hubert St.
> > >Clare?
> > >
> > >Any clarifications are appreciated. I would note that Sanders' English
> > >Baronies was also given as a citation, however, I do not have access to
> > >this.
> > >
> > >Henry Sutliff
> > >
> > >
> > CP does say that Maud was the coheir of her brother Simon, but Sanders p.11
> > says that John (who d.1265 at the battle of Eversham) is the brother from
> > whom the sisters inherited. William I, Maud's father, was followed by
> > William II (d.1262) his second but eldest surviving son. Presumably Simon
> > was the eldest but not the eldest surving son [CP XII/2:300 cf note (f)
> > where Ela's daughters are said to be the heirs of John de Beauchamp a
> > younger brother of Simon].
> >
> > Ela who m. Baldwin Wake (d.1281/82) was the dau. of William I de Beauchamp
> > and his second wife Ida Longespee [CP XII/2:300]. My notes indicate that Ela
> > was the only dau. of William I by Ida but they don't indicate my source for
> > that remark! Ida's first husband was Ralph II de Somery who d.s.p. before
> > 1120 [Sanders p.113 & note 9]. Gunnora d. before 1122 and I have no data as
> > to when Ida married William I. Maud's husband, Roger, was a still minor in
> > 1234 but was of age when he succeeded his brother in 1241 [CP IX:375]. This
> > suggests that he was born in or before 1220. If Maud was roughly of an age
> > with her husband she could have been a daughter by Gunnora de Lanvaley. This
> > the best I can do at the present.
> >
> > After 1120 when the lands of Eudo the dapifer escheated to the crown, the
> > barony of Walkern in Herts was formed and granted to Hamo de St Clair.
> > Hamo's son Hubert was living in 1155 and the latter's daughter, Gunnora, was
> > his heir. She married William I de Lanvaley (d.1180) and they were succeeded
> > by their son William II (d.1204)[Sanders p.92]. The latter's dau. Gunnora
> > (d. before 1122) m. as his first wife William I de Beauchchamp (d.1260) of
> > Bedford [Sanders p.10 note 7].
> >
> I notice in Weis, Ancestral Roots, line 122A (prepared by Douglas
> Richardson), that Ida de Longespee is reported to have married William de
> Beauchamp by 1220 (122A:29). In 122A:30 Richardson lists Beatrice de
> Beauchamp as "3rd dau. and coh." of Ida de Longespee & William de
> Beauchamp. This would seem to imply that all three daughters--Maud, Ela,
> and Beatrice--were daughters of Ida; none were daughters of Gunnora de
> Lanvaley (who had died before 1220 [Sanders pp. 10-11 note 7]).
> Richardson in 122A:29-30 makes reference to CP II 233-235, XI
> 110-111, 382; Pubs. of the Bedforshire Hist Rec. Soc. I 10-16, esp. chart
> p. 25, II 233-235; Knights of Edward I, II 49-50, III 279-180. [I assume
> 279-280 is intended.] We might examine these sources mentioned by
> Richardson to see whether they confirm this inference about the parentage
> of the daughters.
>
> --
> Alan B. Wilson
>
C. Gore Chambers and G. Herbert Fowler, "The Beauchamps, barons of
Bedford," The Publications of the Bedfordshire Historical Record Society,
i, 1913, 1-25, present the following descent from Hugh de Beauchamp who
held 43 manors at Domesday.
Beauchamp ["B."] of Bedford
Hugh de B. = Matilda [de Taillebois ?]
|
| |
Simon de B. Robert de B.
|
Payne de B.=(2)Rohese de Vere(1)=Geoffrey de Mandeville
|
Simon de B. = Isabella
|
ca 1207 | ca 1220
Gunnora de Lanvelay=(1)William de B.(2)=Ida de Longespee
(d. bef. 1221) | (d. 1260) | (d. ca. 1268)
| |
|-John de B. |-Simon de B.
(d. bef. 1233) | (d.v.p.s.p.m. 1256)
| | (dau. Joan de B. d. ca. 1266)
Male Heir |
(? d. by 1235) |-William de B.
| (d.s.p. 1262)
|
|-John de B.
| (d.s.p. 1265)
|
|-Maud de B.
| (d. bef. 1275)
| m(1) Roger de Mowbray
| m(2) Roger l'Estrange
|
|-Ela de B.
| (d. bef. 1266/7)
| m. Baldwin Wake
|
|-Beatrice de B.
| (d. ca. 1280/1)
| m(1) Thomas FitzOtho
| m(2) William Montchensy
There is substantial documentation from primary sources about all of
the persons in this table except for the three daughters--Maud, Ela, and
Beatrice--who are presented, with their offspring, in tabular form on p.
25 of the article.
Clearly Chambers and Fowler assign these daughters without question
to the marriage of William de Beauchamp and Ida de Longespee. Since Ela
who m. Baldwin Wake was the dau. of Ida de Longespee, Beatrice, the third
dau., also must have been.
I do not see any "proof" of Maud, the eldest daughter's, mother, but
Chambers and Fowler seemed to be quite cautious in their inferences; their
thesis did not require their presenting this proof; and the dates do
permit one to accept that Maud was also a daughter of Ida as they affirm.
[If her first husband, Roger de Mowbray, was born ca. 1220, roughly the
date of Ida's marriage, Maud might well have been born shortly after.]
--
Alan B. Wilson
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