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Archiver > GEN-MEDIEVAL > 1999-01 > 0917165181
From: Richard Borthwick< >
Subject: Re: Chatillon ancestry
Date: 24 Jan 1999 00:06:21 -0800
At 06:51 PM 21/01/99 GMT, you wrote:
>From: (John Carmi Parsons)
>Date: 21 Jan 1999 10:51:42 -0800
>Organization: RootsWeb Genealogical Data Cooperative
>Reply-To: John Carmi Parsons < >
>X-Complaints-To:
>Nntp-Posting-Date: 21 Jan 1999 18:51:42 GMT
>
>As I feared, I don't have very much on the ancestry of Renaud of Chatillon
>but for what it's worth:
>
>Milon I, lord of Chatillon, fl. to ca 1050 = NF
>Gui I, lord of Chatillon, fl. 1076 = Ermengarde "de Choisy" (no parents)
>Gauthier I, fl. or d ca 1096 = NF
>Henry I, fl. 1130 = Ermengarde "de Montjai" (no parents named)
>Renaud (yr son) = Constance, *suo jure* princess of Antioch
>Anne = Bela III, king of Hungary
>
>Renaud's elder brother Gauthier II (d. 1147) = Ada de Rouci
>Gui II, fl. 1170 = Alix, dau. of Robert I Ct of Dreux
>Gauthier de Chatillon III (d. 1219) = Elisabeth, dame de St-Pol (d. 1233)
>Hugh de Chatillon-St Pol (d. 1248) = Marie d'Avesnes, *suo jure* countess
>of Blois (d. 1241)
>Guy (yr son, d. 1289) = Mathilde of Brabant
>Gui (yr son, of Chatillon-St Pol, d. 1317) = Marie of Brittany
>John of Chatillon-St-Pol, d. before 1344 = Jeanne de Fiennes
>Mahaut, hss of Chatillon-St-Pol = (1350) Guy of Luxembourg, Ct of Ligny
>
>The above is taken from Anselme and from Stokvis, who essentially repeats
what
>Anselme already said.
>
>John Parsons
>
> __
>| Internet:
>| Fidonet: John Carmi Parsons 1:143/1001
>|
>| A service of the San Jose IBM PC Club, running OS/2 Warp
>
ES VII:17 also follows Anselme, but the correction is made in ES III/1:154.
Reynald belonged to the family of Chatillon-sur-Loing and not
Chatillon-sur-Marne. In the latter reference he is said to be the son of
Geoffroy lord of C-s-L. The article by S Schein in *Lexikon des
Mittelalters* VII:416-417 claims him to be to be the brother of Geoffroy
and son of Herve II lord of Donzy. Runciman *History of the Crusades*
(penguin edition) vol.2, p.345 identifies him as the younger son of
Geoffroy count of Gien and lord of C-s-M(*). Bouchard *Sword, Miter and
Cloister* (Ithaca/London, 1987), p.327 does not mention our Reynald but she
points out that Geoffroy II lord of Donzy and count of Chalon appears in a
charter of 1086 with a "nepos" Raynald son of Robert de Chatillon and that
this Reynald had a son Narjod. Bouchard says "It seems most likely that
Robert of Chatillon was the brother of Geoffrey II's unnamed wife, or
perhaps a relative of Savaric of Vergy." (Savaric was Geoffroy II's
maternal uncle.) The name 'Reynald' occurs several times in the family of
Donzy and it may have passed from that family to that of Chatillon. Our
Reynald died in 1187, and according to ES III/3:435 Geoffroy II d.1111, his
son Herve II d.1120 and his grandson Geoffroy III d.1157. It would seem
that Reynald was rather more remote than the various speculations for
affiliation suggest. My guess (and it is only that) is that he was a
grandson or great grandson of Robert of Chatillon.
The family tree for Donzy in Bouchard is markedly different to that given
in ES.
* In my post above I recognise an error. Runciman doesn't call Reynald's
father lord of Chatillon-sur-Marne but of C-sur-Loing. Also I failed to
mention that Bouchard (p.327) notes that Herve III is called lord of Gien
as well as lord of Donzy. I also should have drawn attention to the fact
that ES III/1:154 while calling Reynald's father Geoffrey lord of C-s-L (as
I noted) there is no claim that this Geoffrey is a Donzy or a relative of
the Donzy. I do, however, think that at least the latter alternative is
intended as the compiler cites Runciman.
It may be of some help to give a chart and the possibilities for Reynold
(marked in Arabic numerals). The basic chart is that given by Bouchard. She
gives no dates (except for Herve IV) which means that the dates which I
give from ES are to be treated with some caution.
________________________________ ______________________
Geoffrey I Herve I oo N Savaric de Vergy
de Donzy de Donzy |
|
__________________________________|_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
Herve Hugh Reynald Geoffrey II oo N Robert de Chatillon
de Donzy & | |
c of Chalon | |
d.1111 | |
| |
______________________________________|_ |
Reynald (1) William Herve II Reynald
de Donzy |
d.1120 |
| |
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ ____|_______ _ _ |_ _ _ _ _ _ _
Reynald (2) Geoffrey III Narjod (Geoffrey)
de Donzy :
d.1157 :
| :
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ ___________________|____________ :
Reynald (3) Geoffrey Herve III de Gien Reynald (4)
& Donzy d.1187
|
___________________________________|______
William Philip Reynald de Herve IV de
Montmirail Donzy d.1222
(1) is actually attested as a son and is proposed by Schein as our Reynald.
(2) is just a possibility and is suggested by no one.(3) or (4) might cover
Runciman's or ES III/1:154's proposal.
The problem is that while the lordship of Gien is attested as being held by
at least one of the lords of Donzy, Bouchard offers no evidence nor does
she claim that they also held Chatillon-sur-Loing. I think it also possible
that Robert de Chatillon married a sister of Geoffrey II (rather than G
marrying Robert's sister). This suggestion would account for the names
'Reynald' and possibly 'Geoffrey' occurring in the family of C-s-L (both
deriving from the Donzy family). The name 'Narjod' - a leading name in the
family of Toucy suggests that there might be some basis in the old claim
that a Geoffrey of Donzy married a Toucy (see ES III/3:435 for a version of
this). The putative Toucy wife was not an ancestor of the subsequent Donzy
(this came about by a suggested earlier marriage to one unnamed). This
suggests the possibility that Geoffrey II and Robert de Chatillon married
Toucy sisters and Robert's son, Reynald, would have been in an accepted
sense of the term 'nepos' of Geoffrey II and might explain the occurrence
of the name 'Narjod' in the Chatillon family.
If our Reynald married Constance (b.?1127 [ES II:205) early in 1153 as a
relatively young man (when he was about 25/30 (say)) then he would have
been born about 1118/23 and about 64/69 when he died. This would almost
certainly place him in the generation of (3) and (4) and at a pinch in that
of (2). Even with an extended chronology (1) looks unlikely since Reynald
was very much involved in fighting to the end of his life. Even making him
64/69 is probably pushing it. Reynald also had a second family after
Constance's death (? 1163).
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