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Archiver > GEN-MEDIEVAL > 2005-09 > 1125644600
From: "Todd A. Farmerie" < >
Subject: Re: King's Kinsfolk: Richard II's kinsman, Edmund Staffiord
Date: Fri, 02 Sep 2005 01:03:20 -0600
References: <4314e4dd@news.ColoState.EDU><Ln6Re.38$lY2.5326@news.uswest.net> <1125635179.181449.231180@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>
In-Reply-To: <1125635179.181449.231180@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>
Rosie Bevan wrote:
> Dear Luke
>
> It's very refreshing to see that your analysis agrees with what I find:
> there is no room for an additional Richard de Vernon - evidence shows
> that there were only two - and Isabella was the daughter of Maud de
> Camville.
>
> In 1310/1311 Richard de Vernon claimed next presentation to the church
Specifically, at an assize, "Mich[aelmas] 4 Edw 2"
> of Pitchcott and gave the following pedigree [Wm Salt 1st series 9:27]
>
> 1. Matilda de Vernon
> 2. Richard de Vernon d.s.p.
> 2. Robert de Vernon
> 3. Hawise de Vernon
> + Gilbert de Franceys
> 4. Richard de Vernon claimant in 1310/11
A detailed account of this De Banco pleading is found in Pedigrees from
the Plea Rolls. It has been discussed here at various times here due to
its implications for the early pedigree of the Vernons. Just to be
clear, it is explicit in that Richard, son of Hawise and Gilbert, was
seised of the manor of Pychecote at the time.
While we are at it, in Jan. 1311 (de Banco Hill. 4 Ed II) the executors
of Michael de Harcla claimed against Richard le Fraunceys a L19 6s debt.
This Richard le F is none other than the same Richard de Vernon, who
had married Isabel de Harcla. Likewise, Richard le Fraunceys was
holding Meaburn in 1314.
> The obvious inference of this is that Richard de Vernon, snr, who was
> born c 1268 was still living in 1310/11 and had not died in 1292 as
A writ of 6 Mar. 1278 indicates that Richard, son of Gilbert le Franceys
(deceased), would be 15 "on the day of St. Dunstan to follow" - that is,
he was born 19 May 1263.
> On 3 February 1323 a writ of diem clausit was sent out for Richard son
> of Richard de Vernon who had recently died. His IPM [CIPM 6 no 406]
> reveals that
>
> a) Richard jnr's son and heir was aged 10 and more i.e. born about
> 1313,
> b) Richard jnr's father had settled moieties of the manor of Nether
> Haddon and Baslow on Richard his son and his wife Maud in 1309.
> William was Maud's son.
This probably represents a marriage settlement.
[snip]
> By Trinity 1329 Richard snr had died, so Isabella his widow sued
> William de Vernon for dower in Nether Haddon and Baslow. A year later
> she sued for dower in Harlaston.[Wm Salt 11:9,18]
Isabel sued in 1342 over encroachment onto Meaburn Maud - it looks like
she had a pretty good run.
> The interpretation that the manors of Pitchcott, Adstock and Baslow
> which had been settled on Richard and Eleanor, had reverted back to
> Richard senior by 1302, is Farrer's, but there is no indication of this
> in 'Feudal Aids' which simply lists "Richard Vernon and his tenants".
But there certainly is an indication of 'reversion' in the De Banco
claim, above - Richard, the father, was seised of Pitchcott in 1310/1,
which is too late for him to have been acting as trustee for minor son.
If Richard jr was contracted to marry in 1290, and married (as we have
seen) by 1294, he had to have reached majority by 1310. While the
reasons remain unclear, it must be takes as proven that Pitchcott was
returned to the father. (Likewise, I see no mention of Pitchcott in the
1223 IPM, again suggesting that the father held it.)
> Richard de Vernon, snr was in prison between 1292 and 1295 so Giles de
> Fiennes was clearly holding the manors as 'custos' or guardian during
> the minority of his son-in-law. Richard jnr would have taken possession
> as soon as he reached his majority whether his first wife was living or
> not.
Yet at a time when the son must have reached majority, the father _was_
holding it. We must be missing something, a transaction in which young
Richard grants Pitchcott back to his father.
taf
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