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From: "Rosie Bevan" < >
Subject: Fw: Turnham
Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 16:34:11 +1300


Further confirmation on the identity of Eleanor, wife of Ralph FitzBernard
comes from VCH Surrey v.3 p.48 under the section on the manor of Peper
Harow

"The actual tenant of Peper Harow in 1086 was a certain Girard one of whose
successors, Osbert of Peper Harow, sold Peper Harow to Ralph de Broc. His
son-in-law Stephen de Turnham received a confirmation of the sale from King
John in 1205. Stephen's daughter Clemency received Peper Harow as her
portion on her marriage with her first husband Alan de Plugenhay; she
afterwards married Wandrith de Corcell, and her third husband, Henry
Braybrok, who evidently survived her, sued Ralph son of Bernard and his wife
Eleanor, daughter of Clemency by Wandrith de Corcell, [Curia regis Roll no.
162 (Hil. 43 Hen III), m. 21] for Peper Harow as having been settled on him
at his marriage with Clemency."


Rosie


----- Original Message -----
From: "Rosie Bevan" < >
To: < >
Sent: Friday, February 21, 2003 3:47 PM
Subject: Fw: Turnham


> I think the two puzzles I mentioned in my last post are now solved. The
> Eleanor married to Ralph Fitz Bernard was actually granddaughter of
Edelina,
> and daughter of Clemence and Wandril de Corcell.
>
> DD 426 sub de Curcellis, Wandregesil, explains part of it but does not
> mention that Clemence de Broc was his wife.
> "Wandregesil II de Curcellis held a third part of a fee at Frome in 1212
> (Fees, 81), which passed to his daughter and heiress Eleanor, wife of
Ralph
> fitzBernard by 1219 (Fess, 262).
>
> 1. Stephen de Turnham=Edelina de Broc
> 2.Mabel=Thomas de Bavelingham
> 2.Alice=Adam de Bendeges
> 2.Beatrice=Ralph de Fay
> 2.Clemence=Wandril de Curceles
> 3.Eleanor=Ralph fitzBernard
> 2.Eleanor=Roger de Leyburn
> 3.Roger de Leyburn
>
> Both Clemence and Eleanor were dead in 1220.
>
> Cheers
>
> Rosie
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Rosie Bevan" < >
> To: < >
> Sent: Friday, February 21, 2003 2:35 PM
> Subject: Re: Turnham
>
>
> > Dear Chris and Hap
> >
> > It was Ralph fitz Bernard who was married to Eleanor. Robert de Leyburne
> had
> > evidently married another daughter of Stephen de Turnham, and she was
dead
> > by 1220. Whether or not she was also named Eleanor is unclear.
> >
> > The evidence for this comes from a curia regis suit in the Trinity term
of
> > 1220, in which Edelina de Broc sued Richard Malherbe for 4L 18s. rent,
and
> > William de Bathonia for 25 acres of meadow and 12 1/2 of wood with
> > appurtenances in Artingdon, Surrey. They in turn called to warrant the
> heirs
> > of Stephen de Turnham who were Thomas de Bavelingham and Mabel his wife,
> > Adam de Bendenges and Alice his wife, Ralph de Fay and Beatrice his
wife,
> > Roger de Leyburn, Ralph fitz Bernard and Alianore his wife.
> >
> > "Et ipsi Ricardus et Willelmus vacaverunt inde ad warrantum heredes
> Stephani
> > de Turnham quondam viri ipsius Edeline, scilicet Thomam de Bavelingeham
et
> > Mabiliam uxorem ejus Adam de Bendeng' et Aliciam uxorem ejus Radulfum de
> Fay
> > et Beariciam uxorem ejus Rogerum de Leyburn' Radulfum filium Bernardi et
> > Alienoram uxorem ejus..."
> > [CRR v.IX, p.85]
> >
> > VCH Surrey v.3 p.4, in a section dealing with this case, states that
> Eleanor
> > was wife of Roger de Leyburne and uses as a source Maitland, Bracton's
> > Notebook, 1410 ; Excerpta e Rot. Fin. (rec. Com.), ii, 25. As the Roger
in
> > the curia regis roll is without a wife, the obvious conclusion to draw
is
> > that he was the representative of the unnamed daughter i.e her son and
> heir.
> > If she was indeed named Eleanor, it would seem there were two in the
> family.
> >
> > The curious thing here is that Clemence, daughter of Stephen de Turnham
is
> > not mentioned, even though she was alive in 1220 and married to Wandril
de
> > Curceles, attorney for Robert de Turneham and Joan Fossard, and had two
> > later husbands [EYC v.2 no.995]. Artindon had descended via Edeline de
> Broc
> > so the obvious inference is that Clemence was not a daughter of Edeline.
> >
> > Cheers
> >
> > Rosie
> >
> >
> >
> > "Chris Phillips" < > wrote in message
> > news:b33ni8$60b$1@newsg1.svr.pol.co.uk...
> > >
> > > Hap Sutliff wrote [extracts from three posts]:
> > > > Edelina de Broc of Saltwood Castle, Kent. d. bef Nov. 1221. Her
> husband
> > > was
> > > > Stephen de Turnham d. 1214. They had five daughters: Eleanor, Alice,
> > > > Clemence, Mabel and Beatrix.
> > > ...
> > > > I meant to add that Hugh Neville was of Hallingbury, Essex and Hugh
de
> > > Plaiz
> > > > was of Barnham, Suffolk. Each left issue from other marriages than
> > > Beatrix.
> > > > Also FWIW I need to check my sources again, but Eleanor/Alianor may
> have
> > > > also been married first to Ralph FitzBernard of Bradwell, Essex, but
> > this
> > > > seems unlikely as both men survived her. My guess is that it likely
> came
> > > > from the Ellis article previously cited.
> > > ...
> > > > An addition to my correction. Alianor de Turnham is shown as wife of
> > Ralph
> > > > FitzBernard in a note at CP V:400. However, there still seems to be
> > > > something amiss as Ralph d. bef 1238 and Roger d. abt. 1251. Alianor
> is
> > > > shown as to have died before 1220 (CP VII:630). Ralph FitzBernard
> > married
> > > > secondly Joan _____. There is no mention of a divorce from either,
but
> > > > clearly this cannot fit for Alianor to have married both and to have
> > > > predeceased both men unless she was divorced from one of them.
> > >
> > >
> > > Yes, according the the CP article on Leyburn which you cite, the
> wardship
> > of
> > > the heir of Robert de Leyburn was granted to Stephen de Thurnham in
> 1199,
> > > and Roger de Leyburn in 1214 had possession of the manor of [Great]
> > Berwick
> > > [Shropshire], which he had with Eleanor, daughter and coheir of
Stephen
> > > (although further down the account says only that Roger and Eleanor
were
> > > married by 1219).
> > >
> > > So if it's correct that Eleanor was dead by 1220, it seems to be
> > impossible
> > > that she was, as CP vol. 5, p. 400, says, also married to Ralph
> > FitzBernard
> > > (d. by 1238). Ralph's son John left a son and heir Ralph who was said
to
> > be
> > > 13, 14, or 15 in 1259, so we might guess that John would be born in
the
> > > 1220s. John does not appear to have been (as CP says), the son of
> Ralph's
> > > subsequent wife, Joan the daughter of Robert Aguillon:
> > > http://www.medievalgenealogy.org.uk/cp/vol5.shtml#fitzbernard
> > >
> > > Indeed, footnote n of CP vol. 7, p. 630 (Leyburn), says:
> > > "The husbands of the other 4 daughters [of Stephen de Thurnham] were
> > Thomas
> > > de Bavelingham, Adam de Bending, Ralph son of Bernard of Tong, and
Ralph
> > de
> > > Faye (Coram Rege Roll, Mich. 8-9 Hen. III, rot. 7)."
> > >
> > > So it looks as though Ralph FitzBernard was married to one of
Eleanor's
> > four
> > > sisters. Hopefully the references given in the Leyburn or FitzBernard
> > > accounts should clear this up. As the daughters were coheirs, if
Ralph's
> > son
> > > John was a son of the marriage, the FitzBernards would presumably have
> > > acquired some land as a result, as the Leyburns acquired Great berwick
> (CP
> > > vol. 7, pp. 630, 640).
> > >
> > > Chris Phillips
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>


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