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From: Stewart Baldwin< >
Subject: Re: Llewellyn ap Iorwerth's mother a Corbet?
Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 04:43:44 GMT


"Todd A. Farmerie" < > wrote:

>I am reading Meisel's Barons of the Welsh Frontier regarding the origins
>of the Corbet family. While her analysis of that question is
>inadequate, I was interested to see an unexpected claim.

>On p. 9, she states the following:

>"Although Robert (Corbet) was unquestionably related through family ties
>to Gwynwynwyn, Prince of Powis, he also seems to have been related to
>another and even more powerful Welsh prince, Llewellyn ap Iorwerth -
>also known as Llewellyn the Great. Sometime between 1199 and 1211,
>Llewellyn stated that a certain Walter Corbet was his relation and
>friend and that Walter was the brother of William Corbet, who was
>Llewellyn's uncle ("frater Willielmi Corbet avunculi mei")."

>for which she cites Eyton, 6:160 and Dugdale's Monasticon, 6:497.

>After discussing the identity of Walter and William, she concludes:

>"Because Llewellyn's mysterious mother is more likely to have been a
>woman in her teens or twenties in 1173 than a woman of more advanced
>years. I think it highly probable that she was Robert's sister rather
>than his aunt. Thus it would seem that Robert was not only the
>father-in-law of the prince of Powis, but the uncle of the first man who
>could justifiably be called the Prince of Wales."

>Needless to say, this conclusion flies in the face of the "established"
>Welsh pedigrees, which show Llewellyn to be maternal grandson of Madog
>ap Maredudd. Other possible connections involving multiple marriages
>and half-siblings are equally difficult.

>Has this claimed Corbet relationship been discussed in the context of
>the welsh genealogies?

What evidence does Meisel give that Llywelyn's mother was a Corbet,
other than the fact that he referred to a Corbet as an uncle? That is
clearly not sufficient to get the conclusion (but it is the kind of
conclusion that you often see from people who are sloppy with their
source materials). Does she even mention what the Welsh sources say
about Llywelyn's mother, and give reasons why she does not accept
their account? (Does the fact that she referred to Llywelyn's mother
as "mysterious" mean that she didn't even know what the Welsh sources
had to say about this?)

It seems to me that the context of Llywelyn's statement "frater
Willielmi Corbet avunculi mei" might indicate that William was married
to an aunt of Llywelyn, for otherwise, why wouldn't Llywelyn refer to
Walter as "avunculus mei" (my uncle) rather than the more awkward "the
brother of my uncle"? (It will be a few days until my next trip to
the closest known copy of Bartrum's Welsh Genealogies, so I am unable
to check the possibilities at the moment.)

In addition, the Welsh evidence making Llywelyn the son of a daughter
of Madog ap Maredudd, while not ideal, is pretty strong. The
statement appears in numerous Welsh genealogical manuscripts, of which
the earliest is Jesus College MS. 20 (edited in Bartrum's "Early Welsh
Genealogical Tracts"), section 29, which states "Llewelyn m. Marereda
merch Madawc m. Maredud" immediately following section 28, which is
Llywelyn's paternal ancestry ("Llywelyn m. Iorwerth m. Ewein Gwyned m.
Gruffud m. Cynan"). In his introduction to the manuscript, Bartrum
states that the latest view is that the manuscript was written by
somebody who learned how to write ca. 1340, but that the source on
which the manuscript was based was written prior to 1200 (based on the
orthography of the surviving text). The fact that Llywelyn ap
Iorwerth was the latest person mentioned in the Jesus College
genealogies also supports the view that it was originally written down
during his lifetime, making it a good source for the identity of his
mother.

Finally, I should note that the statement that Llywelyn "the first man
who could justifiably be called the Prince of Wales" makes me wonder
about Meisel's knowledge of Welsh history. Two centuries earlier,
Gruffudd ap Llywelyn (d. 1063) ruled all of Wales, which is more than
Llywelyn ap Iorwerth (d. 1240) ever did.

Stewart Baldwin

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