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From: John Carmi Parsons< >
Subject: Re: Owain Glyndwr Prince of Wales
Date: 19 Dec 1998 08:19:03 -0800


Leo, my notes show Owain Glyn Dwr marrying in 1383 Margaret Hanmer, of a
family long seated in the Maelor Saesneg ("Saxon Maelor," otherwise in former
times "Flintshire detached"). Unfortunately these notes were taken many years
ago, in my salad days, and I don't have any references for them; I rather
suspect from the paper and handwriting that the *DNB* might be the source.

The information you report below for the Glyn Dwr-Mortimer marriage is all
that I have ever been able to unearth. The three younger children who died
in prison with their mother in 1413 are always said to have been girls,
but I have never seen any reliable authority that reported their names--
only the son's name.

According to these notes, Owain's mother Helen was one of two daughters of
Thomas ap Llywelyn (d. ca. 1355), lord of Ceredigon, a male-line descendant of
Gruffydd ap Rhys, prince of Deheubarth (d. 1201): Gruffydd begat Owain (d.
1235/6), father of Mareddud (d. 1265), who begat Owain (d. 1275) father of
Llywelyn of Ceredigon (d. 1309), father of Thomas father of Helen. Helen's
sister Margaret was twice married; by her second husband Tewdr ap Gronw she
was a grandmother of Edmund Tudor, second husband of Katherine de Valois and
grandfather of Henry VII. (This last obviously comes from the *Handbook
of British Chronology*'s outline descents of Welsh princes.)

I'm unaware of any Mortimer-Glyn Dwr descendants in Scotland or elsewhere,
though I believe there are numerous descendants from Owain's other children.

John Parsons

On 19 Dec 1998, Leo van de Pas wrote:

> Owain Glyndwr/Owen Glendower/Owen Glendour
> son of Gruffyd Fychan, Lord of Glendyfrdwy, and Elen
> born about 1354 in Montgomeryshire
> died in 1416
>
> He studied law at Westminster and became esquire to the
> Earl of Arundel. In 1401 he rebelled against Henry IV,
> proclaimed himself Prince of Wales, established an
> independent Welsh Parliament, and joined the coalition
> with Henry Percy Hotspur who, in 1403, was defeated at
> the battle of Shrewsbury. He then continued to fight for
> Welsh independence until his death.
>
> I cannot find a name for a wife but he had two if not
> three daughters, two names are easy: Alice and Janet.
> The third one, probably Fychan (is that possible ?), made
> an incredible marriage. She married Sir Edmond Mortimer,
> son of Philippa of Clarence, daughter of Lionel, son of
> King Edward III.
>
> The question is : I found an indication for children,
> Lionel Mortimer, who died young, then three unnamed ones
> who, in 1413, with their mother 'died a mysterious death' ,
> and then this infuriating remark 'more children'.
>
> Does anyone know anything about the descendants of Sir Edmund Mortimer and
> Fychan? There is a tradition that descendants moved to Scotland.
>
> Many thanks
> Leo van de Pas
>
>

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