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Archiver > GEN-MEDIEVAL > 1998-10 > 0908879248
From: Reedpcgen< >
Subject: Re: CP XIV: FitzPayn, Grey, Bryan [VERY LONG!]
Date: 20 Oct 1998 10:27:28 GMT
I have seen only one contemporaneous primary record which places Elizabeth,
wife of Robert FitzPayn into the family of Sir Guy de Bryan/Briene. The will
of "Guy de Bryene le fitz" [son of Guy, Lord Bryan] was dated "le vij jo'r de
Juil lan du regne le roy Richard Seconde puis le conqueste septisme." It was
proved the penultimate of March 1386[/7] before Robert de Hatfield, clerk of
Lord Radulfi, Bishop of Sarum [Salisbury]. The will ends, "En tesmoygnaunce q~
ceo est ma darrayne volante a iceste mon testem~t jeo ay mys mon sel jo'r ~t an
susdit'z priaunte trescherment A MON TRESCHE~ FRE~ ROBARD LE FITZPAYN q~ lui
plese sour graunt affiance q~ jeo ay en lui destre aydant de p~form~r mon dit
testement." [Col. Top. et Gen. 3:253-4]
In other words, Guy le fitz calls Robert FitzPayn his very dear/beloved
BROTHER. The terms brother and uncle are distinct, so I conclude that Guy le
fitz knew his relationship to Robert. Robert had not married Guy's aunt, as
Banks and other avere.
This would place Elizabeth de Briene/Bryan as daughter of Sir Guy, Lord Bryan,
by his first wife. Can this be correct? Yes. Elizabeth's daughter and heir
Isabel FitzPayn was not born until 1363-5. Her parents had married 1351-4, but
they had no known surviving issue until nearly ten years later, supporting the
theory that Elizabeth was still a very young in 1354. It is possible that
Elizabeth was born about 1340, possibly earlier if her parents also had an
arranged union in their youth.
Sir Guy, 1st Lord Bryan, was born in or before 1319 ,as he was aged 30 or more
in 1349. He married (1) John [de Carreu], who was still alive 2 Id. Apr. 1347
when "Guy de Briane, knight, lord of Castle Walweyn, and Joan his wife"
received an indult to have a portable altar. [Papal Letters 3:272] "Guy de
Briane and..Elizabeth his wife, late the wife of Giles de Badlesmere" were
mentioned on 10 July 1350 [CCR 1349-1354, p. 191].
As "Elisabeth daughter of Guy de Briane, Knight, damsel [unmarried], of the
diocese of St. Davids" received an indult to choose confesors 17 Kal. Sep. [16
Aug.?] 1351 [Papal Letters 3:450], she must have been daughter by the first
wife. "Robert son of Richard de Grey of Codenore and Elizabeth his wife" were
mentioned on 16 Oct. 1354 [CPR 1354-1358, p. 112]. On 20 Dec. 1354, the
escheator of Somerset and Devon was "to deliver to Robert son of Richard le
Greye of Codenore and Elizabeth, his wife, the manors of Cherleton and Cary,
and to meddle no further with the manors and advowsons of Ceden, Staple and
Wroxhale [CFR 6:417, CCR 1354-60, p. 51]. Robert was then "in the king's
service in parts beyond the sea, in the company of Guy de Bryan." "Sir Robert
Fitz Payn of Codenore and Elizabeth his wife" were mentioned in a deed dated 22
Feb. 29 Edw. III [1355] and "Sir Robert fitz Payn son of Richard le Grey of
Codenore...and Elizabeth his wife" were mentioned in a deed dated Saturday
after St. Mark 31 Edw. III [1357]. [CCR 1354-1360, pp. 185, 391-2.] The last
reference I found for Elisabeth was dated 1 July 1359, and involved Robert Fitz
Payn and Elizabeth his wife and the manor of Wroxhale, co. Dorset [CPR
1358-1361, p. 234].
Col. Top. et Gen. 3:250-78 produces transcripts of many original documents in
French and Latin taken from the escheats [Inquisitions post mortem] and private
collections. I'll touch on what I consider the most relevant.
Charter dated 40 Edw. III [1366]: Robert Fitzpayne, Chevr, granted Sir Guy de
Brian [this could only be Guy, b. ca. 1319] and others [apparently feoffees]
the manors of Ackford Fitzpayne, co. Dorset, Stourton, co. Wilts., and
Brighthampton, Spekington, Staple, and Seden, co. Somerset, with their
advowsons.
Inq. 1 Rich. II [1377], n. 118 -- An inquisition whether it be to the damage of
the King or any other of Guy de Briene, knt., Guy his son [le fitz], knt.,
Robert Fitz Payn, knt., William de Briene [note that Robert is placed before
the brother William], and John de Kentecombe give and assign one messuage in
Poundestoke with the advowson of that church to the chapel of St. Mary,
Slapton, co Devon. Writ dated 10 Dec.
4 Rich. II [1380-1] -- Guy de Brien chivaler grants Philip Brien his son the
manor of Shokerwyke, remainder to William Brien, his son. William Bonville,
Robert Fitz Payne, John Chdeoke, chivalers, John Erle and Edmund Forde were
witnesses.
9 Apr. 3 Rich. II [1380] -- Robert Fitz-Payn, knight, was a witness to a deed
whereby Sir Guy de Briene, knt., junior, and Alicia then his wife, of the manor
of Sutton Poyntz, the remainder, on failure of male issue, to remain to Sir Guy
the father and after to his heirs. Guy the younger "is now dead" and Alice was
in full seisin of the land. The elder Guy confirmed the charter.
There are several records dated to the reign of Henry VIII [ca. 1488] by which
Henry Percy, Earl of Northumberland [the direct descendant and senior heir of
Robert de Ponynges], claimed the ancient lands of Lord Bryan were unjustly held
by the heirs of the Earl of Ormond, whose ancestor is stated to have only held
the lands by curtesy [his wife, Avice, last heir of the main line of
Briene/Bryan, having died without issue].
[There had actually been fines which attempted to pass all the lands from the
blood-line to the unrelated Earls of Wiltshire. "Under a settlement made in
1445 the whole of her vast inheritance remained to her husband in fee on her
death s. p. (Dorset Feet of Fines, Dorset Records, vol. x, 1327-1485, p. 322)
CP 10:128, note i.]
A partition of the lands was actually made . Henry, Earl of Northumberland,
Thomas, Earl of Ormond, Sir Edward Ponynges, Knt., and Sir Thomas Seymour,
Knt., were the parties. It was "determyned bitween the said parties that the
said erle of Northumberland is and oweth [ought] to be takyn and reputed as
heir generall to the said Sir Guy de Brian."
The deed of partition was dated 16 Dec. 4 Hen. VII [1488]. Edward Ponynges
claimed his part as he was son of Robert Ponyngs, son of Robert, Lord Ponyngs
[who had entailed part of the estate to his son Robert]. Thomas Seymour [St.
Maur] claimed according to a will he alleged to be that of Elizabeth Lovell,
cousin and heir of the said Guy, and as the direct heir of John Erlee. Thomas,
Earl of Ormond, claimed as brother and heir of James, Earl of Wiltshire, by
reason of diverse fines made to the said Earl by Dame Avice, Countess of
Wiltshire [and Ormond]. The Earl of Northumberland claimed his part as heir
general of Lord Ponynges.
Thomas [Seymour?] was to have as his share the manors of Wroxhall, Ramsham,
Map[er]ton, Childefrome, co. Dorset, and the advowsons of Wroxhall and Ramsham
and the chapel of Childefrome.
The Earl of Ormond was to have the Isle of Londay and manor of Northam, co.
Devon, and Nether Kentescombe, co. Dorset, and the reversion of certain manors.
Edward [Ponynges] was to have the manors of Chellesfeld, Esthall, Faukham, and
Ashe, co. Kent, and the manors of Shokerwyke and Batheneston, etc., in c.
Somerset,
The Earl of Northumberland [Henry Percy] was to have the residue of the lands,
castles and manors, etc. not before appointed, with reversions, etc.
My point is, there would have been no settlement made if there had not been
good reason for it. I suspect the Earl of Ormond agreed to the settlement
because land mayhave been held in tail, fee, or by varioius limitations which
might eventually negate the fines made by Avice, the last direct heir. If the
Earl of Northumberland, as descendant of hte Ponynges, had no believable claim,
I cannot believe he would give up such large holdings.
I have abbreviated much of the above, which went on for several pages. There
is also a partly erroneous genealogy (apparently created or copied in 1529)
which states that Robert Fitzpayne took to wife Margaret, sister of Guy de
Brian, etc. The genealogy states that After the death of Avice [d. 1457], wife
of "James Ormond Comiti Wiltes" without issue, the hereditaments descended to
Alianore, Countess of Northumberland, aas daughter of Richard, son of Robert,
son of Richard, son of Elizabeth [should be Isabel, bu tthe names were
equivalent], daughter of Margaret [should be Elizabeth], sister of the
aforesaid Guy the father. This is obviously either a later fiction or forgery
drawn up in the Tudor period.
Finally [yes, I know], I'll comment on the ClLIFFORD connection. Sir RIchard
de Grey of Codnor (b. 1281/2, d. 1335) marrie Joan Fitz Payne, daughter of Sir
Robert, Lord Fitz Payne (d. 1315), by his wife Isabel de Clifford, apparently
daughter and eventually coheir of Sir John de Clifford of Frampton-on-Severn,
co. Gloucs. "Villa de Frampton et sunt domini ejusdem ville Isabella, que fuit
uxor Roberti filii Pagani, et Willelmus de Bolesdon" (1316) [Feudal Aids
2:266]. So Isabel held Frampton in 1316. Hugh Clifford's _The House of
Clifford from before the Conquest_ states that Sir John de Clifford (d. 1292)
married Margaret Hereward and had three children, (1) Richard de Clifford,
living 1314 (who had three children, Richard, and two daughters, all of whom
entered religious orders), (2) Isabella, living 1303, who married Robert Fitz
Pain, and (3) Margery, living 1314, who married Nicholas de Carroll.
The Victoria County History of Gloucester 10:143-4 [interspersing Hugh
Clifford's work], traces the descent of Frampton from Drew itz Pons (1086), to
his brother Richard, to his son Walter de Clifford, who was father of Richard
de Clifford (d. 1213). He was succeeded by his son and heir Richard, who was
succeeded by Sir Hugh de Clifford (d. 1254) [Clifford, supra, make this Sir
Hugh the last Richard's brother, instead of his son], whose son Sir John de
Clifford is the man I mentioned above.
After Frampton-on-Severn, co. Gloucester passed to Robert FitzPain [1st Lord]
and Isabel his wife, the manor continued, after Robert's death in 1315 (Isabel
held the manor in 1316 and 1320), to his son Robert [2nd Lord FitzPayn] (held
Frampton in 1327). He settled it on his daughter [and eventual heir] Isabel
FitzPayn and her husband John Chideock. The manor continued descending through
their heirs.
Much of the above was written late at night, so I welcome any any comments,
analysis or corrections.
pcr
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