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From: "Peter Stewart" < >
Subject: Re: Death of Pippin the Fat
Date: Sat, 07 May 2005 01:30:50 GMT
References: <qN2ee.2699$31.804@news-server.bigpond.net.au> <nathanieltaylor-FBDADE.12411406052005@news1.east.earthlink.net>


"Nathaniel Taylor" < > wrote in message
news: ...
> In article <qN2ee.2699$ >,
> "Peter Stewart" < > wrote:

<snip>

>> Pippin died at Jupille near Heristal & was buried at Saint-Arnoul in
>> Metz,
>> the church dedicated to his grandfather.
>
> Settipani gives this place of death, also without citation, next to the
> traditional 'death' date. What is the earliest source for place of
> death? Is it connected to a date?

I will try to answer this in detail later - I can't tell you off the top of
my head, but from memory it's a deducton rather than directly stated in a
source that Pippin died at Jupille.

>> In the necrology of Saint-Arnoul,
>> most likely to be accurate, his death was placed on 15 November: "XVII
>> kalendas Decembris. Pipinus dux" [see Joseph Depoin, 'Obits mmorables
>> tirs
>> de ncrologes luxembourgeois, rmois et messins', _Revue Mabillon_ 6
>> (1910-1911) p. 265.
>>
>> I don't know why this information should have been overlooked.
>
> Nor I. What was the occasion for your investigation and collation of
> these notices? Did Depoin remark on this at all in commentary on the
> text?

Depoin is one of the great firgures in the modern study of Frankish history
and genealogy, so it puzzled me that an article of his with such a promising
title should not even appear in the bibliographies of several later works on
the period, such as the ones cited before. That is why I sought it out, not
looking for details about Pippin in particular.

The occasion in more general terms was the work I have in (long, slow..)
progress, compiling tables of noble families in France from ca 750 to ca
1250 with all sources given (cited, transcribed and translated) for every
detail. This will be made available online one day, I hope, if someone with
better computer skills than mine will take it on - currently the material
runs to more than 1,600 pages and is very far from complete, so it will
never see print.

Depoin found the information about Pippin in an unpublished work of
Mabillon, titled 'Anecdota Alsatica', giving extracts from the oldest
necrology of Saint-Armoul at Metz. Apart from the correction to 15 November,
he remarked briefly on the rest of the entry regarding Pippin, specifying
his gift of Norroy ("Nugaretum cum appendiciis suis") to Saint-Arnoul. There
is a charter dated 20 February 691 for this donation, known from a 15th
century extract in which the text is not authentic.

> Would Pippin really have been buried as many as 30 days after his death?

I suppose we can't know - the weather in that season might have delayed the
journey with his corpse to Metz, or the ceremonies there might have been put
off for a time to allow important mourners to attend. There was no
particular Frankish custom as far as I'm aware that dictated the speed of
burial. With at least one Carolingian emperor (Charles the Bald), the timing
of his initial burial was simply a matter of smell - when this became
overpowering, they gave up taking him over the Alps and buried him
temporarily at Natua. A few years later he was reburied, permanently, in
Saint-Denis.

> Is it possible that the Metz annal (or its source) somehow changed xvii
> kal dec into xvii kal ian, and is such a mistake common or uncommon?

Yes, and this kind of discrepancy in dates is VERY common indeed in the
medieval period. For instance, Pippin's son Charles Martel is recorded in
the same Metz annals as dying on 22 October ("XI kal. Novembris") in 741,
but on 15 October ("Idibus Octobris") in the annals of Saint-Amand. Again, I
suspect this is because the Metz annalist used the date of burial instead of
actual death in recording his demise.

> Throwing out the separate significance of the date "xvii kal. ian."
> would allow Pippin's burial to be earlier (as the Saint-Amand entry
> doesn't specify date, so it could have been at the beginning of the
> month).

Certainly this could be the case. My only reason for suggesting a gap from
15 November to 16 December is that there is no evidence that one or other
source had mistakenly switched the month intended, and the Metz annals
(whether or not the same person was behind the records) seem to give later
dates than others fairly consistently, as with Charles Martel. (NB Depoin
didn't go into this question.)

> Finally, why is Pippin so declined in the Saint-Amand notice?
> Was it supposed to have been an ablative absolute (deposito Pippino) or
> just a nom.-gen. phrase (depositio Pippini)?

The full text of the 714 entry (in MGH SS I p. 6) is:

"depositio Grimoaldo in mense Aprili, et depositio Pippino in mense
Decembrio".

Assuming the editor has this literally correct, I guess it was just a monk
who didn't bother himself overmuch about Latin.

Peter Stewart



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