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Archiver > GEN-MEDIEVAL > 1999-11 > 0942509594


From: Douglas Richardson < >
Subject: Re: Lygon to Henry I
Date: Sat, 13 Nov 1999 08:13:14 -0800


Hi Ed:

In your helpful post below, you state that Agnes de Ferrers, wife of
Robert de Muscegros (died 1280), was the mother of his daughter, Hawise
de Muscegros (born 1276), who married John de Ferrers and John de Bures.

Actually it appears that Agnes was NOT Hawise's mother. My research
indicates that late in life Agnes conveyed her maritagium in Chinnor,
co. Oxford to the Sapy family, which action is typical in this period
of an aging widow who was childless. If Agnes was truly Hawise's
mother, Agnes' maritagium would almost certainly descended to Hawise
and not have been sold. All the other Muscegros family holdings
descended to Hawise as her father's sole heiress.

Furthermore, when Hawise married Agnes' nephew, John de Ferrers, they
had to obtain a dispensation to marry. In this instance, the
dispensation makes no mention that Hawise and John were related by
kindred, so we must assume that they were not. Rather, the
dispensation was obtained for other reasons. In any case, it would
have been extremely unlikely for first cousins to marry in this period.
The closest near kinship I see in dispensations are for couples related
in the 3rd degree or higher, which would be no closer than second
cousins. Since first cousin marriages were virtually unknown, this
would basically rule out any possibility of Hawise de Muscegros being
that closely related to John de Ferrers.

For these various reasons, I conclude that Agnes de Ferrers was not the
mother of Hawise de Muscegros.

Sincerely, Douglas Richardson


In article < >,
(ED MANN) wrote:
> wrote:
> >
> > Hello Everyone,
> >
> > I was wondering if this Line of Descent from Henry I, King
> of England
> > to Henry Lygon, is still a valid line of Descent?
> I have alternatives:
> Direct Descendants of Henry I of England
>
> 1 [10] Henry I of Englandaka: "Beauclerc"b: 1068d: 1 Dec
> 1135ref
> #: 121-25
> 2 Constanceref #: 98-25
> +Roscelin de Maineaka: Raoul V de Beaumontd: Aft. 1145
> 3 Richard I de Beaumontaka: Vicomte de Mained: Aft. 1194ref
> #:
> 98-26
> +N de L'Aigleref #: (98-26)
> 4 Constance de Beaumontd: Aft. 1226ref #: 98-27
> +Roger IV de Toenib: Abt. 1160d: Jan 1208/09ref #:
> 98A-27
> 5 Ralph VI de Toenib: 1190d: 1239ref #: 98-28
> +Petronel de Lacyd: Aft. 1287ref #: (98-28)
> 6 [1] Roger V de Toenib: 1235d: Bef. 12 May 1264ref #:
> 98-29
> +Alice de Bohunref #: W101A-3
> 7 Alice de Toenid: Aft. 1306ref #: (84-29)
> +Walter de Beauchampb: Abt. 1243d: 1303ref #: 84-29
> 8 [9] Giles de Beauchampb: Abt. 1273d: Oct 1361ref #: 84-30
> +[8] Catherine de Buresb: Bef. 1315d: Aft. 1354ref #:
> W57-6
> 9 John de Beauchampd: Bef. 1402ref #: W58-7
> +Elizabethaka: Elizabeth de St. Johnd: 1411
> 10 William de Beauchampaka: 1st Baron Beauchampd: Bef.
> 1431ref #:
> W58-8
> +Catherine de Uffleteref #: BxP:34
> 11 John de Beauchampaka: 1st Baron Beauchamp of Powyked:
> Bef. 19
> Apr 1475ref #: W58-9
> +Margaret Ferrersd: 29 Jan 1486/87
> 12 [3] Richard Beauchampaka: 2d Lord Beauchamp of Powykeb:
> 1435d:
> 19 Jan 1502/03ref #: W58-10
> +[2] Elizabeth Staffordref #: W28-11
> 13 Anne Beauchampb: 1462d: 1535ref #: W28-12
> +Richard Lygonaka: Knt.ref #: (84-35)
> 14 Richard Lygonaka: Knt.d: 20 Mar 1556/57ref #: W28-13
> +Margaret Grevilleaka: Margaret Grevellref #: 84-36
> 15 Henry Lygonb: Abt. 1525d: Abt. 1577ref #: W28-14
> *2nd Wife of [1] Roger V de Toeni:
> 2 Robert de Caenaka: Earl of Gloucesterb: Abt. 1090d: 31 Oct
> 1147
> ref #: 124-26
> +Maud FitzHamonb: Abt. 1090d: 1157ref #: (63-26)
> 3 Maud de Caenaka: Maud FitzRobertb: Abt. 1120d: 29 Jul
> 1189ref
> #: 125-27
> +Ranulph de Guernonaka: 2d Earl of Chesterb: Abt. 1100d:
> 16 Dec
> 1153ref #: 132A-27
> 4 Hugh de Keveliocaka: 3d Earl of Chesterb: 1147d: 30 Jun
> 1181ref
> #: 125-28
> +Bertrade de Montfortb: Abt. 1155d: 1227ref #: (125-28)
> 5 Mabel of Chesteraka: Mabel de Meschinesb: Abt. 1172ref #:
> 126-29
> +William d'Aubignyaka: Named in Magna Chartab: Abt.
> 1133d: 1
> Feb 1220/21ref #: W129-1
> 6 Nichole d'Aubignyb: Abt. 1193d: Bef. 1254ref #: W136-2
> +Roger de Someryaka: Baron Dudleyb: Abt. 1183d: Bef. 27
> Aug
> 1273ref #: 81-29
> 7 [5] Margaret de Someryaka: Margery de Someryb: Abt. 1239d:
> Aft.
> 18 Jun 1293ref #: W136-3
> +Ralph Bassetaka: 1st Lord Basset of Draytond: 4 Aug
> 1265ref
> #: BxP:26
> 8 Ralph Bassetaka: 2d Lord Basset of Draytond: 31 Dec
> 1299ref #:
> W136-4
> +Hawiseref #: (55-30)
> 9 Margaret Bassetd: 17 Mar 1336/37ref #: W136-5
> +Edmund de Staffordaka: 1st Baron Staffordb: 15 Jul
> 1273d: Bef.
> 12 Aug 1308ref #: BxP:499
> 10 [4] Ralph de Staffordaka: 1st Earl of Staffordb: 24 Sep
> 1301d:
> 31 Aug 1372ref #: W136-6
> +Katherine de Hastang
> 11 Margaret Staffordb: Abt. 1337ref #: W28-7
> +John de Staffordaka: Knt.d: Aft. 1360ref #: BxP:501
> 12 Ralph de Staffordb: Abt. 1354d: 1 Mar 1409/10ref #: W28-8
> +Maud de Hastangb: Bef. 2 Feb 1358/59ref #: BxP:266
> 13 Humphrey Staffordaka: Knt.b: 1384d: 20 Feb 1418/19ref #:
> W28-9
> +Elizabeth Burdetref #: (55-35)
> 14 Humphrey Staffordaka: Knt.b: 1400d: Aft. 1466ref #:
> W28-10
> +Eleanor Aylesburyref #: W51-9
> 15 [2] Elizabeth Staffordref #: W28-11
> +[3] Richard Beauchampaka: 2d Lord Beauchamp of Powykeb:
> 1435d:
> 19 Jan 1502/03ref #: W58-10
> *2nd Wife of [4] Ralph de Stafford:
> *2nd Husband of [5] Margaret de Somery:
> 5 Agnes of Chesteraka: Agnes de Meschinesb: Abt. 1174d: 2
> Nov 1247
> ref #: 127-29
> +William de Ferrersaka: 4th Earl of Derbyd: 22 Sep
> 1247ref #:
> 194-7
> 6 [6] William de Ferrersaka: 5th Earl of Derbyb: Abt. 1193d:
> 24
> Mar 1253/54ref #: 127-30
> *2nd Wife of [6] William de Ferrers:
> +[11] Margaret de Quincyb: Abt. 1218d: Abt. 11 Mar
> 1283/84ref
> #: W88-3
> 7 Agnes de Ferrersref #: (189-4)
> +Robert de Muscegrosb: Abt. 1252d: 27 Dec 1280ref #:
> W57-4
> 8 [7] Hawise de Muscegrosb: 21 Dec 1276d: Aft. 24 Jun
> 1340ref #:
> W57-5
> *2nd Husband of [7] Hawise de Muscegros:
> +John de Buresd: Dec 1350ref #: (189-6)
> 9 [8] Catherine de Buresb: Bef. 1315d: Aft. 1354ref #: W57-6
> +[9] Giles de Beauchampb: Abt. 1273d: Oct 1361ref #:
> 84-30
> *Partner of [10] Henry I of England:
> 2 Elizabethaka: Joanref #: 121B-26
> +Fergus of Gallowayaka: Lord of Gallowayd: 12 May
> 1166ref #:
> (38-24)
> 3 Uchtred of Gallowayd: 22 Sep 1174ref #: 121B-27
> +Gunnild of Dunbarb: Abt. 1134ref #: 38-24
> 4 Roland of Gallowayb: Abt. 1164d: Dec 1200ref #: 38-25
> +Elena de Morvilleb: Abt. 1153d: 11 Jun 1217ref #:
> (38-25)
> 5 [12] Alan of Gallowayaka: Named in Magna Chartab: Abt.
> 1186d:
> 1234ref #: W139-1
> +aka: Helen de L'Isle
> 6 Helen of Gallowayb: Abt. 1208d: Aft. 21 Nov 1245ref #:
> W139-2
> +Roger de Quincyaka: 2d Earl of Winchesterb: Abt. 1174d:
> 25 Apr
> 1264ref #: W74-2
> 7 [11] Margaret de Quincyb: Abt. 1218d: Abt. 11 Mar
> 1283/84ref #:
> W88-3
> +[6] William de Ferrersaka: 5th Earl of Derbyb: Abt.
> 1193d: 24
> Mar 1253/54ref #: 127-30
> --
> FWIW; AFAIK; IMHO; YMMV; yadda, yadda, yadda.
> Regards, Ed Mann mailto:
> References:
> = Weis, _Ancestral_Roots_, 7th ed.
> AACPW = Roberts & Reitwiesner, _American Ancestors and Cousins
> of
> the Princess of Wales_, [page].
> AAP = Roberts, _Ancestors_of_American_Presidents_, [page] or
> [Pres. # : page].
> BP1 = _Burke's_Presidential_Families_, 1st ed. [page].
> BPci = _Burke's_Peerage_, 101st ed., [page].
> BRF = Weir, _Britain's_Royal_Families_, [page].
> BxP = _Burke's_Dormant_&_Extinct_Peerages_, [page].
> EC1 = Redlich, _Emperor_Charlemagne's_Descendants_, Vol I,
> [page].
> EC2 = Langston & Buck, _Emperor_Charlemagne's_Descendants_, Vol
> II,
> [page].
> EC3 = Buck & Beard, _Emperor_Charlemagne's_Descendants_, Vol II,
> [page].
> F = Faris, _Plantagenet_Ancestry_, [page:para].
> FMS = Stewart, _Forgotten_Monarchy_of_Scotland_, [page].
> NK1 = Roberts, _Notable_Kin_Volume_One_, [page].
> = Hardy, _Colonial_Families_of_the_Southern_States_of_America_,
> [page].
> S = Stuart, _Royalty_for_Commoners_, 2d ed. Caveat emptor.
> W = Weis, _Magna_Charta_Sureties,_1215_, 4th ed.
> WFT = Broderbund's World Family Tree CD, [vol]:[num] Caveat
> emptor.
> WMC = Wurt's Magna Charta, [vol]:[page]



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