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Archiver > GEN-MEDIEVAL > 1996-08 > 0839018684


From: Stewart Baldwin < >
Subject: Re: Carolingian - Merovingian LINK ?
Date: Fri, 2 Aug 1996 20:44:44 GMT


Jared Olar < > wrote:

>On Wed, 24 Jul 1996, Fred Tiedemann Croese wrote:

>> At my home page I mention a problem I have with the link between the
>> Carolingians and the Merovingians (I couldn't check my source). I'm
>> also not very confident about the fact that the link is via Dagobert II.
>
>Hi Fred.
>
>For what it's worth, here is the purported Merovingian descent from King
>Dagobert II to Regnier I of Hainaut, most easily to be found in ANCESTRAL
>ROOTS:
>
>DAGOBERT II, King of Austrasia, 676-680, married MATHILD.
>
>ADELA, said (by Chaume) to be a daughter of Dagobert II.

Adela was probably not the daughter of Dagobert, but rather of the count
palatine Hugobert (d. 697/8). See "Die Vorfahren Karls des Grossen" by
Hlawitschka, in the four volume "Karl der Grosse", vol. 1, pp. 51ff. In
addition, the immediately following generations have dotted lines in
Chaume, indicating conjecture.

>ALBERIC (Aubri) I, Count of Blois, son of Adela.
>
>ALBERIC II, Count of Blois, son of Alberic I.
>

etc. [snip]

>There are a few reputed or probable links between the Carolingians and
>the Merovingians, but I do not know if any of them have been sorted out
>yet, nor indeed if it is even possible to do so. In any case, I'll go
>through a few of them:
>
>I. The male line of the Carolingians has been traced back to a Ripuarian
> Frankish king named CHLODOVECH or Clovis, King of Cologne circa
> 420 A.D. For some reason ANCESTRAL ROOTS calls Chlodovech's line
> "The Riparian Branch of the Merovingian House," or something like
> that. But since King Merovech, eponym of the Merovingians, was at
> best a younger contemporary of King Chlodovech, we may safely
> conclude that Chlodovech was a descendant of Merovech. Granted,
> Chlodovech and Merovech were probably related in some way, in both
> male and female lines, but such kinship is untraceable. Occasionally,
> King Chlodovech is said to have married a Merovingian, but again, the
> chronology shows that his wife could not have been descended from
> Merovech--a sister or aunt, perhaps, but not a descendant.

The male line ancestry of Charlemagne prior to Bishop Arnulf of Metz is
based on late sources of questionable value. See the account of
Hlawitschka referred to above, and the references cited there.

[snip]

>These and similar possible descents were discussed by the late Sir Anthony
>Richard Wagner is his two books ENGLISH GENEALOGY and PEDIGREE AND
>PROGRESS. In the latter book, he also shows intermarriage between the
>Merovingian House and the Oiscing Kings of Kent in England. ECGBERT,
>King of Wessex, was the son of EAHLMUND, Sub-king of Kent, who either
>married an Oiscing heiress or else was himself descended from one, so it
>is very likely that the Pre-Conquest Kings of England (Ecgbert's family)
>were descendants of the Merovingians through the Kings of Kent. However,
>once again we find that the exact pedigree cannot be established. Others
>here might know more about the Kentish connection to the Merovingians,
>and could offer you more assistance. Other than this one, I am unaware
>of other links between the Merovingians and later European families.
>(One of the legendary pedigrees of the Habsburgs made them male-line
>descendants of the Merovingians through a certain LIGIBERT, supposedly
>a son of one of the Kings of Austrasia--but that pedigree is most
>unacceptable, to say the least.)

The supposed descent of the West Saxon kings from the Merovingians by way
of the kings of Kent is pure guesswork. King Ecgbert of Wessex was the son
of a man named Ealhmund, who has sometimes been identified with the
sub-king of Kent of the same name who appears during the reign of Offa of
Mercia, but there is no evidence for this identification beyond the fact
that Ecgbert's father and the Kentish subking had the same name and lived
during the same time. The is no record of any marriage occurring between
the dynasty of Wessex and the dynasty of Kent. The "evidence" in this case
is the fact that the name Ecgbert was also borne by two Kentish kings, and
on this basis (bolstered by the uncertain identification of the two
Ealhmunds mentioned above), it has been conjectured that Ecgbert of Wessex
was descended from one of the Kentish Ecgberts, which might then give a
Merovingian descent by way of the Merovingian Bertha, wife of king
Aethelbald of Kent. Given the completely conjectural nature of this
claimed descent, and the lack of supporting evidence, I think it is best to
take it with a grain of salt.

Stewart Baldwin

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