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Archiver > GEN-MEDIEVAL > 1997-10 > 0877629719
From: "Todd A. Farmerie" < >
Subject: Re: Ralph de Fougeres and Ralph du Mans
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 1997 14:01:59 -0400
(Damien Rauline) posted:
> Following the reference given by Todd A. Farmerie, I read the article by
> K.S.B. Keats-Rohan in the Journal of Medieval History (vol.20 (1994) p.3-37,
> Two Studies in North French Prosopography).
>
> She writes p.20 n.101 that Ralph I of Fougeres was a great-grandson of
> Ralph III vicomte of le Mans, (as appears from Cartulaire de Saint Pierre de
> la Couture, Cartulaire de Marmoutier, or Cartulaire de Saint Aubin).
>
> Does anyone have got information about this link ?
This caught my attention too. I personally found Keets-Rohan a bit
confusing, with all of the Ralphs of le Mans being discussed and her
suggestion that another one should be shoehorned into the pedigree at
some point. Unfortunately, the only source that I have which mentions
Ralph de Fougeres is Turton (Plantagenet Ancestry). I will get back to
this later.
Looking at the ancestry of Ralph de Fougeres, we can exclude a male line
descent. Ralph is known to be son of Main, son of Alfred, son of Main.
Thus the le Mans connection must be either through the wife of Main (II)
being Ralph's granddaughter, or Alfred marrying his daughter. Turton
shows Main (II) marrying the daughter of Walter Giffard. This is
clearly wrong. Ralph himself married Avise de Clare, daughter of
Richard de Clare and Rohese Giffard, daughter of the same Walter
Giffard, and (except in Spain) a first cousin marriage should not be
considered without strong evidence. (Note that in another article,
Keets-Rohan details the descent from Walter Giffard through Clare to the
wife of Ralph de Fougeres, to their son Robert Giffard of Weare, Devon.
She does not mention a Giffard descent for Ralph himself.) I suspect
that the marriage of Main (II) to a Giffard was invented to explain the
inheritance of the Giffard name by a younger branch, by a genealogist
who did not recognize the possibility of this descent through Clare
serving as the conduit for the surname.
With the lack of information available to me, anything more is
speculation. Still, I will speculate. (Rampant speculation mode on - )
With the appearance of the name Ralph in the next generation, I think it
likely that Main (II) married a paternal granddaughter of Ralph III ( -
rampant speculation mode off). I know that at least a portion of the Le
Mans line is presented in Europaische Stammtafeln, so perhaps an
accounting of the children of Ralph III will help narrow down the
possibilities (although if I recall, ES does not use the numbers, so we
have to know which Ralph is Ralph III). I will take a look at Latouche
tonight and see if anything pops out of the mist. I note that you cited
Anselme in an earlier post on the Fougeres descent. He also shows a le
Mans descent (refering to them as Viscounts of Maine), and that may also
be worth a look.
ta
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