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Archiver > GEN-MEDIEVAL > 1998-08 > 0902486394
From: Richard Borthwick< >
Subject: Re: Agnes of the Isles (Macdonold) Wife of John Montgomery of
Date: 7 Aug 1998 03:39:54 -0700
At 01:24 AM 7/08/98 GMT, you wrote:
>On 6 Aug 1998 02:49:35 -0700, (Leo van de Pas)
>wrote:
>
>>No Agnes------but that could mean, perhaps, illegitimate. What, for me, is
>>an indication for illegitimacy, if she is the daughter of Eoin/John, is
looking
>>at dates. Eoin/John married in 1350 (2nd) and died in 1387.
>
>Are we sure that Agnes is a daughter of this Eion/John?
There no direct or primary evidence (as distinct from traditional pedigrees)
that I can find (none is cited in *Acts of the Lords of the Isles*) to prove
that Agnes was a dau. of John de Yle (or de Insulis in some documents), Lord
of the Isles (Dominus Insularum), son of Angus Og de Yle/Ylis by Aine Ni
Cathan dau. of Cu-maige na nGal O Cathan. John had a Papal dispensation
(dated 4 June 1337) to marry his cousin Amy MacRuari and another (dated 18
July 1350) to marry Margaret Stewart. Agnes' son, Alexander Montgomerie,
lord of Ardrossan, witnesses under that style a charter of John de Yle earl
of Ross and lord of the Isles. The notarial instrument for the charter is
dated 18 June 1456. The editors of the *Acts of the Acts of the Lords of the
Isles* (p.271) says of Alexander Montgomerie "His mother [Agnes] was
probably a daughter of John, lord of the Isles, and Margaret Stewart....".
The "probably" would appear to apply to both John and Margaret. I hope this
is of some help.
>
>>Agnes married John Montgomery and their son, Alexander Montgomery, 1st Baron
>>Montgomery, was born "before 1413". How old would Agnes have been "before
1413"?
>>Say, 23 in 1413, would make her born about 1390 and if it is "before",
lets say
>>1387, the year her supposed father died. If she is born, even in 1380, would
>>Lady Margaret Stewart have given birth some 30 years after her marriage?
>>These dates, to me, certainly leaves out Amy MacRaurx. I feel we are not
>>much closer to an answer----but, I would love to see "Acts of the Lords of the
>>Isles 1336-1493".
>
>It may not be as impossible as it looks for Margaret Stewart to be
>Agnes' mother. Here is a possible scenario:
>
>Margaret a was daughter of Robert II and Elizabeth Mure, who may or
>may not have been married at the time. Regardless, the date for the
>start of their relationship seems to have been put at c1336, when
>Robert was 20. If Margaret were the eldest daughter, she may have been
>15 or 16 *tops* at the time of her marriage contract. So, it is not
>wholly impossible that a woman married at 15 might still be having
>children at 45. It may well be that Margaret was a good deal younger
>than 15 at the time of the marriage, making childbirth well into the
>1370s a firm possibility.
>
>To continue: Agnes and John Montgomerie had at least five children
>before Agnes' death before March 1414 (I have mislaid the source for
>that date, but it may well be Burke's Peerage under one of the
>Montgomery lines). This is presumably where the 'before 1413' birth
>date for their son Alexander comes from, especially as he had at least
>2 younger brothers. So it is likely that Agnes started her family some
>time about or before 1405.
>
>It seems that we have a band of quite a few years around 1375-1380 for
>a possible birth date for Agnes, making it perfectly possible that she
>was Margaret's ?youngest? daughter.
>
>Suzanne
>
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