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Archiver > GEN-MEDIEVAL > 2000-12 > 0975880477


From: < >
Subject: Re: 2 Helens ferch Llywelyn
Date: Sun, 03 Dec 2000 21:54:37 GMT


Dear Dave, etc.:

In addition to the children listed below by Mr. Reitwiesner for Prince
Llewellyn, Llewellyn also had a legitimate daughter by his wife, Joan
of England, named Susanna.

Andrew MacEwen of Maine has reviewed the chronology of the Earls of
Fife and determined that Ellen, the surviving wife of Malcolm, Earl of
Fife, was a later, much younger second wife. Ellen was evidently not
the mother of Earl Malcolm's heir. As such, he postulates that Earl
Malcolm had an earlier unknown first wife and it was the earlier wife
who was the daughter of Llewellyn. If correct, then Earl Malcolm's
known surviving wife, Ellen, must be removed from the list of Prince
Llewellyn's children below.

As for the identity of Earl Malcolm's first wife, Mr. MacEwen suspects
the earlier wife may have been Susanna, the legitimate daughter of
Prince Llewellyn by his wife, Joan of England.

Best always, Douglas Richardson, Salt Lake City, Utah

E-mail:

In article < >,
wrote:
> In a message dated 12/1/00 3:07:45 PM Central Standard Time,
> writes:
>
> > Elen and Helen are the same name, hence the confusion. Mr.
Reitweisner's
> > The Genealogist article is a must-read, as he discusses all of
> > Llywelyn's children, but the daughters were his main focus. All of
the
> > daughters' maternity is unknown, until more documentary evidence is
> > uncovered. Some may be Joan's but it is unproven which, if any.
Since
> > the maternity of some of the children is unknown, Dave Utz's chart
is a
> > little misleading, as it is implied that the offspring of the so-
called
> > third wife may not be full siblings at all. Also as the maternity
of the
> > (H)elen who married de Quincy is not known positively, so listing
her as
> > a known dtr. of Joan's is not correct.
> >
> > Kay Allen AG
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
> Here is a copy of the post made by WAR. Note, there is another
article which
> reportedly proves Joan a mother of an Elen.
>
> See my article in *The Genealogist* (Association for the Promotion of
> Scholarship in Genealogy), vol. 1, no. 1 (Spring 1980), pp. 80-95.
The
> children of Llywelyn Fawr ap Iorwerth (c1173-1240) were as follows:
>
> Sons:
>
> (1) Gruffudd, illegitimate son by Tangwystl ferch Llywarch Goch
> (2) Tegwared y Baiswen, illegitimate son by unknown woman
> (3) Dafydd, legitimate son by Joan of England
>
> Daughters:
>
> (4) Angharad m. Maelgwn Ieuanc ap Maelgwn Hen (or Fawr)
> (5) Angharad m. Philip ab Ivor
> (6) NN (name unknown) m. William Caentwn
> (7) Gwladus Ddu m1. Reginald de Braose m2. Ralph de Mortimer
> (8) Margred m1. John de Braose m2. Walter de Clifford
> (9) Gwenllian Las m. William de Lacy
> (10) Elen m1. John, Earl of Chester m2. Robert de Quincy
> (11) Elen m1. Malcolm, Earl of Fife m2. Donald, Earl of Mar
>
> The purpose of my article was to show that the commonly ascribed
maternity
> of Llywelyn Fawr's daughters, i.e., that most if not all of his
daughters
> were also daughters of his wife Joan, daughter of King John of
England, is
> unsupported and that the mother of these daughters must be shown as
> "unknown". Later, in the same periodical, vol. 4, no. 2 (Fall 1983),
pp.
> 137-138, Andrew B. W. MacEwen proved that the daughter Elen who
married the
> Earl of Chester and later Robert de Quincy was a daughter of Joan.
>
> William Addams Reitwiesner
>
>
> Always optimistic--Dave
>
>


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