GEN-MEDIEVAL-L Archives

Archiver > GEN-MEDIEVAL > 2003-02 > 1045791354


From: "Rosie Bevan" < >
Subject: Re: Turnham
Date: Fri, 21 Feb 2003 14:35:54 +1300


Dear Chris and Hap

It was Ralph fitz Bernard who was married to Eleanor. Robert de Leyburne had
evidently married another daughter of Stephen de Turnham, and she was dead
by 1220. Whether or not she was also named Eleanor is unclear.

The evidence for this comes from a curia regis suit in the Trinity term of
1220, in which Edelina de Broc sued Richard Malherbe for 4L 18s. rent, and
William de Bathonia for 25 acres of meadow and 12 1/2 of wood with
appurtenances in Artingdon, Surrey. They in turn called to warrant the heirs
of Stephen de Turnham who were Thomas de Bavelingham and Mabel his wife,
Adam de Bendenges and Alice his wife, Ralph de Fay and Beatrice his wife,
Roger de Leyburn, Ralph fitz Bernard and Alianore his wife.

"Et ipsi Ricardus et Willelmus vacaverunt inde ad warrantum heredes Stephani
de Turnham quondam viri ipsius Edeline, scilicet Thomam de Bavelingeham et
Mabiliam uxorem ejus Adam de Bendeng' et Aliciam uxorem ejus Radulfum de Fay
et Beariciam uxorem ejus Rogerum de Leyburn' Radulfum filium Bernardi et
Alienoram uxorem ejus..."
[CRR v.IX, p.85]

VCH Surrey v.3 p.4, in a section dealing with this case, states that Eleanor
was wife of Roger de Leyburne and uses as a source Maitland, Bracton's
Notebook, 1410 ; Excerpta e Rot. Fin. (rec. Com.), ii, 25. As the Roger in
the curia regis roll is without a wife, the obvious conclusion to draw is
that he was the representative of the unnamed daughter i.e her son and heir.
If she was indeed named Eleanor, it would seem there were two in the family.

The curious thing here is that Clemence, daughter of Stephen de Turnham is
not mentioned, even though she was alive in 1220 and married to Wandril de
Curceles, attorney for Robert de Turneham and Joan Fossard, and had two
later husbands [EYC v.2 no.995]. Artindon had descended via Edeline de Broc
so the obvious inference is that Clemence was not a daughter of Edeline.

Cheers

Rosie



"Chris Phillips" < > wrote in message
news:b33ni8$60b$1@newsg1.svr.pol.co.uk...
>
> Hap Sutliff wrote [extracts from three posts]:
> > Edelina de Broc of Saltwood Castle, Kent. d. bef Nov. 1221. Her husband
> was
> > Stephen de Turnham d. 1214. They had five daughters: Eleanor, Alice,
> > Clemence, Mabel and Beatrix.
> ...
> > I meant to add that Hugh Neville was of Hallingbury, Essex and Hugh de
> Plaiz
> > was of Barnham, Suffolk. Each left issue from other marriages than
> Beatrix.
> > Also FWIW I need to check my sources again, but Eleanor/Alianor may have
> > also been married first to Ralph FitzBernard of Bradwell, Essex, but
this
> > seems unlikely as both men survived her. My guess is that it likely came
> > from the Ellis article previously cited.
> ...
> > An addition to my correction. Alianor de Turnham is shown as wife of
Ralph
> > FitzBernard in a note at CP V:400. However, there still seems to be
> > something amiss as Ralph d. bef 1238 and Roger d. abt. 1251. Alianor is
> > shown as to have died before 1220 (CP VII:630). Ralph FitzBernard
married
> > secondly Joan _____. There is no mention of a divorce from either, but
> > clearly this cannot fit for Alianor to have married both and to have
> > predeceased both men unless she was divorced from one of them.
>
>
> Yes, according the the CP article on Leyburn which you cite, the wardship
of
> the heir of Robert de Leyburn was granted to Stephen de Thurnham in 1199,
> and Roger de Leyburn in 1214 had possession of the manor of [Great]
Berwick
> [Shropshire], which he had with Eleanor, daughter and coheir of Stephen
> (although further down the account says only that Roger and Eleanor were
> married by 1219).
>
> So if it's correct that Eleanor was dead by 1220, it seems to be
impossible
> that she was, as CP vol. 5, p. 400, says, also married to Ralph
FitzBernard
> (d. by 1238). Ralph's son John left a son and heir Ralph who was said to
be
> 13, 14, or 15 in 1259, so we might guess that John would be born in the
> 1220s. John does not appear to have been (as CP says), the son of Ralph's
> subsequent wife, Joan the daughter of Robert Aguillon:
> http://www.medievalgenealogy.org.uk/cp/vol5.shtml#fitzbernard
>
> Indeed, footnote n of CP vol. 7, p. 630 (Leyburn), says:
> "The husbands of the other 4 daughters [of Stephen de Thurnham] were
Thomas
> de Bavelingham, Adam de Bending, Ralph son of Bernard of Tong, and Ralph
de
> Faye (Coram Rege Roll, Mich. 8-9 Hen. III, rot. 7)."
>
> So it looks as though Ralph FitzBernard was married to one of Eleanor's
four
> sisters. Hopefully the references given in the Leyburn or FitzBernard
> accounts should clear this up. As the daughters were coheirs, if Ralph's
son
> John was a son of the marriage, the FitzBernards would presumably have
> acquired some land as a result, as the Leyburns acquired Great berwick (CP
> vol. 7, pp. 630, 640).
>
> Chris Phillips
>
>
>
>
>


This thread: