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Archiver > GEN-MEDIEVAL > 1999-10 > 0939934401


From: Reedpcgen< >
Subject: Re: Llewelyn's wives - a summary
Date: 14 Oct 1999 20:53:21 GMT


>He was betrothed to, and apparently married a daughter of a "lord" or
>"prince" of the Isles.

The third letter from Pope Innocent actually refers to him as the King of Man
[rege Manniae] and Rhodri's travels to and from Man, so there is no question
about who her father was in that sense. 'Prince of the Isles' was used, not
LORD [dominus]. Stewart has already tried to make a valid point of this.

>This woman had previously been betrothed to one of
>Llewelyn's uncles, most probably Rhodri.

Not only was she betrothed to Rhodri, she was properly married to him in the
church door [in facie Ecclesiae], and slept with him in the same bed for quite
some time, so the Pope concluded that though her nurse, parents, etc., denied
after his death that they had intercourse, the Pope had to declare as a matter
of law that they did know each other carnally.

If the chronological accounts given in the third letter are correct [not part
of the falsified information], she would have been born about 1183 [Rhodri died
in 1195].

>Llewelyn's marriage to the daughter of the Isles had to be annuled because
>during the time that negotiations were going on he had apparently married a
>daughter of Hugh of Cyveiliog, Earl of Chester.

No, the cause of marriage was quashed because the [elder] daughter of the
Prince of the Isles had already been married and known by Llywelyn's uncle.
This to me implies that the sister of the Earl of Chester was already dead in
1205, or she would have been an impediment. And the wording of the document
[as shall come out] indicates that no children were born to this possible union
with the Princess of Man.

I HAD NOT WANTED to put all this forward until the Latin text could be
presented too, which will probably not happen for a few more days, so be
patient.

There may be a slim chance that Margred was daughter of Joan. Tangwystl would
be a more likely candidate. As the sister of the Earl of Chester was likely
legitimate, she could not have been Margred's mother or her issue would have
been coheirs. And there is definite reason to believe [because of the wording
of the Latin text of the third letter of Pope Innocent] that no issue came from
Llywelyn by the Princess of Man, so Margred would not be her daughter.

Paul

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