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Archiver > GEN-MEDIEVAL > 1998-03 > 0890958503


From: KHF333< >
Subject: Re: Re: Adelhaid wife of Grisgonelle
Date: 26 Mar 1998 16:28:23 -0800


The charts are a mess and cannot be trusted. We have the same problem in
completing the second volume of "The Ancestry of Elizabeth of York" (published
by HT Communications).

Malyn Lewis, the compiler, sent me this commique: "This relates to an earlier
question about these two women being married to Geoffrey I, Count of Anjou.
Today, I received copies of the Anjou and Vermandois pages from ES from my
cousin in SLC. These pages have these two ladies hopelessly confused as well.
Although it is possible that the daughter and mother were married to the same
guy (Geoffrey I, Count of Anjou), I don't think it likely. In fact, ES has
fallen into the same trap as others have by showing BOTH womenmarrying him on
the same date! Unless they allowed blatant bigamy in those days,I don't think
that's possible. But, on the Anjou chart, he does show that Geoffrey married
twice. 1st time was to Adele de Donzy, daughter of Robert, Count of Meaux and
Troyes. Adele died in 974. He also shows that this marriage occurred between
Adele and Geoffrey I in about 965. (But, NOT as a widow of Lambert, Count of
Chalon as is shown on the Vermandois chart. That chart shows that Adele
married Lambert, then Geoffrey. The problem with that is this is the same
Lambert that her mother married after her father (Adelaide's first husband,
Robert, Count of Meaux and Troyes) died.) That leaves us with the very real
possibility that Adelaide (the mother of Adele (who married Geoffrey I, Count
of Anjou)) did, in fact, marry the widower of her daughter. This one is SUCH a
mess (from the many sources I've seen), I'm not sure what we should do about
it. I think I have it right that Adele (the daughter) only married once
(despite what ES says which is clearly wrong). Her mother married three
times, with the last one being Adele's husband. In point of fact, ES shows
that the first 4 children of Geoffrey were from Adele and a last child
(Maurice) was the son of the 2nd wife, Adelaide (Adele's mother). But, there
is a big problem with Adelaide being the mother of Maurice (unless she married
Robert, Count of Meaux and Troyes at a VERY young age. It was common for that
to happen, though.). If she married young to Robert, she would not be too old
to be having children at the end of 979 (the year of her marriage to
Geoffrey). She had the two children by Robert in about 950. Assuming she was
15 then, she'd be 44 in 979 when she was married to Geoffrey. So, the
scenario is still possible, maybe even likely. What would you like to do about
this?"

SOOO, I asked Robert Helmerichs, a scholar at the University of Minnesota who
specializes in this time. His reply was: "You're right, it's very confusing.
Geoffrey married two women, both named Adele. The second has nothing to do
with Vermandois (that is, the mother of Maurice, a.k.a. Adelais, a.k.a.
Adelaide). The first was either the daughter of Robert of Troyes or his
sister (sister seems to carry the field these days, but there are hold-outs
for daughter). The
Adelaide who was married to Robert is another woman altogether. If you're a
real masochist, xerox the genealogical tables from the following books [Fukk
Nero, by Bachrach, etc] , then try to piece together a coherent picture from
them. What you'll learn, I think, is that genealogy in this period is an art,
not a science. Or that chaos theory (of a non-mathematical kind) reigns.

Bachrach, Bernard S. Fulk Nerra, the Neo-Roman Consul, 987-1040: A
Political Biography of the Angevin Count. Berkeley: University of
California Press, 1993.

Bur, Michel. La formation du comte de Champagne, v.950-v.1150, Memoires
des Annales de l'Est, 54. Nancy: Publications de l'Universite de Nancy
II, 1977.

Le Jan, Regine. Famille et pouvoir dans le monde franque (VIIe-Xe
siecle): Essai d'anthropologie sociale, Histoire ancienne et medievale,
33. Paris: Publications de la Sorbonne, 1995.

McKitterick, Rosamond. The Frankish Kingdoms Under the Carolingians.
London: Longman, 1983.

Riche, Pierre. The Carolingians: A Family That Made Europe, translator
Michael Idomir Allen. Philadelphia: University of Pennsylvania Press,
1993.

Settipani, Christian. "Les comtes d'Anjou et leurs alliances aux Xe et
XIe siecles." Family Trees and the Roots of Politics: The Prospography
of Britain and France from the Tenth to the Twelfth Century, 211-268.
Editor K. S. B. Keats-Rohan. Woodbridge: Boydell, 1997.

Rob"

Now if anyone has a better answert than this, please e-mail me or post it.

- Ken

Kenneth Harper Finton
editor of THE PLANTAGENET CONNECTION

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