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Archiver > GEN-MEDIEVAL > 2007-02 > 1171153613
From: "Peter Stewart" < >
Subject: Re: Charles Constantine, Count of Vienne: identity of his mother
Date: Sun, 11 Feb 2007 00:26:53 GMT
References: <mailman.3013.1171068061.30800.gen-medieval@rootsweb.com><1171078954.991823.52980@p10g2000cwp.googlegroups.com><mailman.3026.1171082853.30800.gen-medieval@rootsweb.com><1171113726.962216.182550@j27g2000cwj.googlegroups.com>
< > wrote in message
news: ...
> On Feb 9, 11:46 pm, "Leo van de Pas" < > wrote:
>> Dear Doug,
>>
>> Answering a question by quoting only a book is not really fair. That book
>> is
>> in French, and it may be doubted that many have access to it. I just wish
>> that if you regard quoting this book as a reply, you had mentioned the
>> page
>> number, so we can see what to look for..
>>
>> After this grizzle, I am glad you made me look as I think I may have
>> interpreted Settipani wrongly.
>>
>> Page 9 has a family tree with notes in between the tree and I think I
>> overlooked two minute dots implying uncertainty.... I think combined with
>> the dates I may have it wrong.
>>
>> Emperor Leo VI 866-912 had by his mistress Zoe Zautzina (maitresse 881,
>> official concubine 893, Empress 898-899) a daughter Anna born about 889.
>> and
>> now the French comes in "epouse (900) un prince franc infortune et cousin
>> de
>> Berta", this Anna died circa 903.
>>
>> So far so good. Settipani places a short line underneath a person and
>> then
>> joins that little vertical line with a horizontal line to another person
>> to
>> indicate marriage. The little vertical line for Anna is just two dots.
>> Anna
>> is linked to "Ludovicus III empereur 901-905, aveugle 905." He lived
>> circa
>> 880 to 5 June 928. The offspring of this couple is Carolus Constantinus,
>> comte de Vienne born 901/3.
>>
>> If Anna is the mother of Carolus Constantinus the possibility is implied
>> she
>> was about 12 (ca.889 to 901) or up to 14 years old when she gave birth,
>> and
>> died aged about 14.
>>
>> Anna married a French prince "infortune" (unfortunate, unlucky) who was a
>> cousin of Berta. Was Ludovicus III unfortunate when, according to
>> Settipani,
>> a year later he becomes Emperor? However he was unfortunate because
>> "aveugle
>> 905" tells he became blind (or was he blinded?) Ludovicus III was son of
>> Irmingardis who was a first cousin of "Berta de Tuscia", who I have
>> recorded
>> as Berta of Lorraine, daughter of Lothar II, king of Lorraine, and she
>> married (2) Adalbert Markgraf of Tuscany, Count of Canossa.
>>
>> -----------Settipani seems to say likely but uncertain. Siegfried Rosch
>> in
>> his "Caroli Magni Progenies" page 128 seems to be certain that those
>> links
>> are correct.
>> Kaiser Ludwig III 'Bosonides' born about 880, died 928. He was crowned
>> Emperor but four years later Berengar of Friaul attacks him and blinds
>> him.
>> When in 924 Berengar was murdered, Ludwig III 'the blind' was not
>> considered
>> to become emperor again.
>> He married twice (1) ca.900 Anna born 886..888, died before 914, daughter
>> of
>> the Byzantine Emperor Leo VI and his second wife Zoe, daughter of
>> Stylianus
>> Zautzes. He married (2) before 18 January 914 Adelheid daughter of King
>> Rodolfe I of Upper-Burgundy.
>> By each wife he had a son. The son by Anna is Karl Konstantin born about
>> 901.
>>
>> Settipani gives Anna died about 903, Rosch 'before 914'
>>
>> Settipani says possible, Rosch says yes. Where can we go from here?
>>
>> With best wishes
>> Leo van de Pas
>> Canberra, Australia
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: < >
>>
>> Newsgroups: soc.genealogy.medieval
>> To: < >
>> Sent: Saturday, February 10, 2007 2:42 PM
>> Subject: Re: Charles Constantine, Count of Vienne: identity of his mother
>>
>> > On Feb 9, 7:40 pm, "Tony Hoskins" < > wrote:
>> >> This may have been covered before here, but I'd be most interested in
>> >> the current thinking regarding the mother of Charles Constantine,
>> >> Count
>> >> of Vienne (d. 962) - ancestor countless times to many of us. As a
>> >> corollary: if his mother were in fact Anna of Byzantium, daughter of
>> >> Leo
>> >> VI 'the Wise', Emperor of Byzantium (d.912), what is the view as to
>> >> the
>> >> truly "ancient ancestry" charted out for Anna and her fahter Leo VI
>> >> (via
>> >> Armenia, etc.) shown in Leo van de Pas's wonderful "Genealogics"? I
>> >> gather Settipani has expressed dubiety on this.
>>
>> >> Thanks.
>>
>> >> Tony
>>
>> >> Anthony Hoskins
>> >> History, Genealogy and Archives Librarian
>> >> History and Genealogy Library
>> >> Sonoma County Library
>> >> 3rd and E Streets
>> >> Santa Rosa, California 95404
>>
>> >> 707/545-0831, ext. 562
>>
>> > see Christian Settipani, "Nos ancetres de l'Antiquite", (1991).
>>
>> > Doug
>>
>> > -------------------------------
>> > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to
>> > with the word 'unsubscribe' without
>> > the
>> > quotes in the subject and the body of the message
>
> Ok
>
> See Settipani, Onamastique et Parente dans l'Occident Medieval, pps
> 22-23, 48, 183.
This is more useless than the first vague citation that Leo complained
about, and indeed misleading:
Pages 22-23 of the book in question are not even written by Settipani (one
of the co-editors) but by Donald Jackman, and contain to this purpose only a
loose assertion that "the later dukes of Lorraine descended from Sophie of
Bar's paternal aunt - a daughter of that Richilde, therefore, who descended
from the Folmars of Bliesgau and thus in all likelihood from Emperor Louis
the Blind and the Byzantine princess Anna".
Page 48 is just a table connected to the same paper byJackman illustrating
the purported "likely" descent, with a question mark as to the number of
generations involved.
Page 183 has two of three tables connected to a paper by Jean-Noel Mathieu,
the first showing Charles Constatin of Vienne as the son of Louis the Blind
by Anna, with no indication that this is merely speculation.
> also Stewart Baldwin, post to SGM dated 1 nov 1996.
>
> I have not seen anything to indicate that Ludwig III and Anna of
> Byzantium are not the most likely parents of Charles Constantine.
Then you have evidently not seen my post to SGM dated 19 Nov 2004 copied
below.
I should add to this that the man's proper name was simply "Carolus", from
his Western imperial ancestor, as shown by a diploma of his father and his
own charters; he is called "Constantinus" in addition to this by Flodoard
copied later by Richer. If a second name had been conferred on him in order
to emphasise a Byzantine ancestry, first this would most probably NOT have
been "Constantinus" (since his purported Eastern imperial grandfather was
named Leo, and anyway the names Constant and Constantine were common enough
amongst Franks to make for a quite different set of associations in most
minds locally), and secondly one would expect in such circumtances to find
that the man himself and his own father would have used the dynastic name
pairing rather than ommitting the second element so that this comes down to
us only incidentally and from a couple of strangers writing elsewhere.
The stronger likelihood seems to me that Charles was the son of an unknown
concubine, whose family used the second name Constantine (by which he could
be identified as from a bastard lineage, as Richer tells us), and perhaps
held possessions and influence in Vienne, explaining his comparative scrap
of rights from his paternal ancestry.
The name Constantia that appeared in the comital family of Provence is not
the direct feminine of Constnatinus - this would obviously be Constantina -
and was only used for females in descent from this later original, who is
sometimes held to be a daughter or sister of Charles Constantine: however,
the male name "Constant", or "Constantine" for that matter, does not occur
as might be expected if this had any kind of dynastic significance tracing
to Charles Constantine himself much less to his alleged Byzantine ancestry.
The name Constantine was used by Franks quite frequently from the late 7th
century onwards, and filtered up to the feudal aristocracy at least once
again, by the early 10th century, for a viscount of Aunay. It is false to
maintain that this was rare or held significance in relation to any
Byzantine figure apart from a reverence for Constantine the Great who has
nothing to do with this genealogy.
Peter Stewart
[In the thread "Boso de Prigord's wife"]
JBernigaud wrote:
> Thank you again for this very interesting explanation. In fact,I think I'm
> going to study the sources about Charles Constantin's family, in order to
> establish his different and most probable descendants. Do you know any
> source or work about that subject?
It should first be remembered that definite proof of his maternity is
lacking. His father was certainly Emperor Louis the Blind, but Charles
Constantin was not able to inherit Provence from him or rights to
imperial succession, and becomae only count (or prince) of Vienne. His
legitimacy is usually accepted, although this was specifically denied by
Richer.
For all we know his possession of Vienne may be an indicator of his
mother's local origin & family rights - the name Constancius was not
uncommon there in the 10th century, and Constantinus also occurs: the
latter may have been in his case just a less usual variant of the
former. It should be emphasised that among his alleged descendants
through Queen Constance the form is "Constancia", not "Constantina"; and
the name for some reason never crossed back over the gender divide, in
spite of her own son's choice of an exotic Greek name for his heir
Philippe when the purportedly ancestral Constantine might have served
his needs at least as well.
Ulysse Chevalier's edition of _Cartulaire de l'abbaye de
Saint-Andr-le-Bas...suivi d'un appendice de chartes indites sur le
diocse de Vienne (IXe-XIIe sicles)_ (Lyons, 1869) contains several
different men of this name, including a few contemporaries who could not
possibly have been descendants of the Macedonian dynasty. If he was not
the son of the Greek princess Anna, Charles Constantin's mother (and or
Queen Constance's paternal grandmother for that matter) might have been
related to one or more of them.
Charles Constantin himself was married to a woman named Teutberga, who
occurs with him and two sons in a charter of ca 960. These boys were his
only recorded offspring, named Richard and Hugobert. They both disappear
from the record within a decade or so, and we don't know that either of
them reached adulthood or left descendants.
Attempts have been made to connect the house of Savoy to Richard, but
this is merely wishful guesswork.
The popularity of the supposed Byzantine ancestry of Charles Constantin
through his mother derives mainly from an article about him by Charles
Previt-Orton in _English Historical Review_ 29 (1914), and more lately
from the theories of Christian Settipani which you have noted.
Peter Stewart
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