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Archiver > GEN-MEDIEVAL > 1998-10 > 0907787826
From: G . EDWARD ALLEN< >
Subject: CP and Countess Lucy
Date: 7 Oct 1998 12:17:06 -0700
CP VI: 743-6, Brownbill, J., "The Countess Lucy."
"The only direct statements about it [Lucy's parentage] are in the
Peterborough Chronicle [Printed by the Caxton Soc. The original was
written circa 1370, and is probably a copy of an older compilation. The
story of Spalding, in which Lucy is mentioned, is obviously the same as
that of the pseudo-Ingulf, and derived from Crowland. The writer seems
to have had access to the Spalding chartulary (Add. MS. 352396 and Harl.
MS. 742), which was compiled about 1330. "
Even if there weren't a great deal of doubt about the Crowland and
Peterborough materials, they are hardly contemporaneous.
Ivo on 1091 was granted the lordship of Kendal. For those of you who
are interested in the descent of this property, CP refers to Farrer,
*Records of Kendal*.
The link between Aelfgar and Lucy is Spalding. The link from Aelgar
could well have been broken by Hastings. It could have been granted
to someone between Aelfgar and lucy and not related to Aelfgar. It
could have been a Thorold, but that does not prove it was Thorold the
Sheriff, just a Thorold, who may have been a kinsman of Lucy's.
"No close family connection between Aelfgar and Lucy is mentioned in any
contemporary document, and chronology is opposed to the relationship of
father and daughter. Moreover, the only known children of Aelfgar are
Edwin, Morcar, and Aeldgitha, wife of Harold, and consequently the
passing of the manor of Spalding cannot be held to justify the inference
that Aelfgar was father of Lucy."
Thorold, whom J. H. Round indentifies with the Lincoliensis Turoldus
mentioned in "De miraculis sancti Eadmundi' of Herman,[Feudal England,
p. 329. Does anyone have this passage handy? K.] appears to have founded
a cell at Spalding subject to Crowland. [Dugdale, Mon. 111:215] Kirk
avers that there are no Thorold charters at Crowland, which abbey burned
in 1091. (Thorold the Sheriff died about 1085.) Farrer mentions a date
of about 1092, which is also after Thorold the Sheriff died. Can anybody
come up with a fairly good date for this document?
Ivo Taillebois gave lands in Spalding to the Abbey of St. Nicholas,
Angers," for the souls of himself and Lucy his wife, and of their
ancestors, 'to wit, Thorold [not denominated as The Sheriff] and his
wife.' [Add. MS. 35296, f. 8.]" It does not seem to specify of whom
Thorold and his wife were ancestors, Ivo or Lucy. It also does not
specify the relationship. In 1135, Lucy gives Spalding to the church and
monks of St. Nicholas, Spalding "as she held it 'in times of Ivo de
Thallebos [sic] and Roger FitzGerold and Earl Ranulph, in alms for my
soul and for the redemption of the soul of my father and of my mother
and of my husbands and kinsmen.' [Farrer, Yorks Charters, iii:184]."
No names appear to be specified. Add. MS 35296, f. 388b, which is
acharter of Hugh II, Earl of Chester, confirming to Spalding the tithes
given by his predecessors. CP mentions Thorold the Sheriff. I would like
to know if the charter actually says that or if the CP infered it and
stated it as fact, which it might not be.
Some of Lucy's lands had been forceably surrendered to the King. Part
was given to Lucy and part was eventually given to Wm de Roumare. But
the terms and lands are not specified. So we cannot be sure if the lands
of Thorold the Sheriff were acquired through Lucy or through another
avenue, even if CP sees it as evidence that Thorold was father of Lucy.
Next time, I will return to Kirk's articles.
Kay Allen AG
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