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From: "Christian Settipani" < >
Subject: Re: Origins of the Capetians, Komnenos and the Carolingians
Date: Thu, 16 Jan 2003 15:32:38 +0100
References: <3E265EA9.30502@interfold.com>
A)
For the Carolingians' ancestry, I allow to my recent paper ' L'apport de l'
onomastique dans l'étude des généalogies carolingiennes', Onomastique et
Parenté, I, p. 185-229, where I study again the problem. Even, if one doesn'
t follow my conclusions, one will find there most sources and the main
modern theories.
B)
For the Capetians' ancestry, the texts are the following ones:
- Annales Floriacensis, s. a. 866: Robert the Strong was one of the powerful
('inter primores') ;
- Annales Xanthensis, (c. 875) s. a. 867: Robert was native of 'Francia'
('ortus de Francia') ;
- Abbon of Saint-Germain-des-Près (c. 895): the King Odo (Eudes) was
Neustrian, but the election was greeted with the people of 'Francia'
('Francia laetatur, quamuis is Nustricus esset') ;
- Foulque of Reims (893) (in Flod., Hist. Rem., IV , 5): King Odo was
foreign to the royal family (' ab stirpe regia alienus ') ;
- Réginon of Prüm (c. 905), s. a. 861: Robert the Strong arose from a noble
family ('generosa stirpis') ;
- Widukind (c. 968), I, 29: King Odo was native of Francia Orientale ('ex
orientalibus Francia') ;
- Richer, (c. 995), I, 5: King Odo was the son of Robert, member of the
equestrian order, and the paternal grandson of Witichin, a German foreigner
('ex equestri ordine Rotbertum, auum uero paternum Witichinum, aduenam
Germanum')
- Aimoin of Fleury (c. 1005), Mirac. Sanct. Bened. II, 1: Robert was a Saxon
('saxonici generis uir').
To clarify what follows, I recall that Neustria was the North of France
(with notably Orléannais, Paris, Picardy) and that 'Francia' is in Germany,
the region around Worms, Spire or Mainz.
After a brief enthousiasm due to his recent discovery (so C. von Kalckstein
in 1871) Richer's evidence was soon dismissed, and so for Aimoin's. These
evidence were contradictory with others and scholars explain them by
confusions (e.g. : Witichin = Wido(kin), Saxony = Saosnois in Maine), or
more simply by polemic forgeries easily understandable in the context of the
change of dynasty. So, in the mid eleventh century, Raoul Glaber says that
King Robert I's family was obscure (I, 1 : cuius genus ... repperitur
obscurum').
Main modern theories are the following ones:
- A. de Barthelemy (1873): Robert the Strong, son of William, count of Blois
and nephew of Odo, count of Orléans.
- R. Merlet (1895/7): Robert, son of William, count of Blois, himself son of
a lord of 'Francia'.
- J. Depoin (1905) and M. Chaume (1925): Robert is the son of Guy the Young
(Wido-kin) and of a sister of William count of Blois and Odo count of
Orlêans. Guy the Young is the son of Guy, marquis of Brittany, brother of
Robert, count of Wormsgau and son of Adalhelm.
- F Gabotto ( 1924 ): Robert is the son of Anselm, son of Theoderic, count
of Frize (+ 793), son of Robert, count of Rheingau (741), son of Robert,
count of Sundgau (673), son of Robert, mayor of Neustrie's palace (677), son
of Robert, referendarius 630, son of Caribert (636), son of Ethelbert, king
of Kent.
Capetian's origins was then revolutionized by the article of K. Glöckner
(1937). He demonstrates that Robert the Strong, native of Francia, is
identical with Robert, who was in Francia in 836, son of Robert, count of
Wormsgau (804/12 - 825/834).
This point seems, in my view, definitively demonstrated and isn't so far
contested.
Two theories are in confrontation today for the continuation:
-That of K. Glöckner: Robert of Wormsgau would be the son of Robert, count
of Rheingau (795-807), son of Thurincbert, son of Robert, duke of Hesbaye c.
741.
-That of J. Siegwart (1958): Robert of Wormsgau would be the son of Robert
II, count of Argengau and Linzgau, son of Robert I, count of Argengau and
Linzgau (770/4-886), son of Nebi, count in Alemania.
K Glöckner was followed and completed notably by K. F. Werner, and J.
Siegwart's theory received the recent support of D. Jackman.
For reasons which I shall expose somewhere else, I prefer at this time
Glöckner's thesis.
In every case, it is very likely than the mother of Robert the Strong was
Waldrada, sister of Odo, count of Orléans and daughter of Hadrian, count of
Wormsgau (brother of the queen Hildegarde and grandson of Nebi of Alemania)
and of Waldrada, niece of S. William of Toulouse.
By the way I point out that these filiations have nothing to do with the
false genealogy forged by J. du Bouchet in 1646 who make Robert the Strong
the son of another Robert and a sister of Odo of Orléans. J. du Bouchet was
right by mere coincidence.
One believed for a long time that Robert's wife was Adélaïde 'of Tours',
widow of Conrad of Auxerre, and this is still the position of K. F. Werner.
I prefer to think that she was a daughter of Conrad and Adélaïde, maybe
named Emma (so, C. Bouchard). Of this union arise Kings Odo and his brother
Robert I, both born in Neustria (it is necessary to delete here Regilinde
whom I mention very wrongly in 'La Prehistoire' as sister of the king Odo
and who was really a sister of Odo, count of Toulouse).
C)
For the Komnenoi, it is necessary to refer to K. Varzos, The genealogy of
Komnenoi, 2 vol., 1984 (in Greek), t. I, p. 25 sqq. :
The late legends which claim that Komnenoi were stemming from a relative of
Constantin I are without any foundation and did not even exist at the time
of Anna Komnena (see K. Varzos, op. cit.). The family was native of a
thracian village called Komne, whose location remains obscure.
The first of the Komnenoi who is known to us was Manouel Komnenos Erotikos
(K. Varzos, I, no 2, p. 38-9). Doubtless son of one (Isaakios?) Komnenos and
of one Erotika (sister of Théophilos?: the (Paphlagonian ?) family of
Erotikoi is badly known, it is the object of a short note by A. Kazhdan);
Manouel was perhaps brother of Nikephoros, patrikios, katepan of Media 1016
(+ 1026 : Varzos, n° 3, p. 39-40 ; J.-C. Cheynet, 1990, p. 38) ;
In any case, Manouel was born probably towards 955; patrikios,
protospatharios, (count of Opsikion); domestikos of the scholai of the East;
died in 1020/5. He was father of Isaakios (Isaac) (*1007, + 1060, emperor
1057-9), Iohannes (John) (*c. 1015,+ 1067, couropalates and domestikos of
scholai 1057) and doubtless two daughters : Ne, wife of a Kontostéphanos
(J.-C. Cheynet, 1990, p. 277) and Ne, wife of Michael Dokeianos (K. Varzos,
n° 5, p. 47-9).
D) For Poppa
One can not consider in the same way Dudo's testimony on Poppa and on
Gisele. In the second case, it is an evident forgery of which model and
motives are transparent. This is not right for the first case. I was
probably hypercritic on this point in 'La Préhistoire'. If the circumstances
of Rollon's marriage such as reports them Dudon are apparently legendary, it
is little credible on the other hand that Richard II, under who writes
Dudon, was able to ignore the identity of his great-grandmother. Moreover,
Berenger is named in a charter in 892. In good criticism, Dudo's testimony
preferable to that of the later Annals which make Poppa the daughter of
Wido. I am not at home these days and I can't verify, but I believe that it
should be possible to find women named Pop(p)a or Bob(b)a. Anyway the
existence of the male name Pop(p)o / Bob(b)o is enough to guarantee the
credibility of the name in the feminine.
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