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From: SETTIPANI< >
Subject: De NEVERS
Date: 5 Dec 1998 07:33:59 -0800


David Collyer wrote :
>Does anyone know the parents of Ermengarde De TONNERRE ( - 1090) who
>married William De NEVERS (1030 - 1100) and was the mother of Renaud II >De NEVERS?

The Ascendancy of Ermengarde of Tonnerre : Part I

The question about Nevers has raised up three answers, all of three
erroneous. As many - if not the most - answers about Early Middle Ages.
I will speak thereafter of Constantia of Provence (not Toulouse !).
Briefly, the problem is that nowhere a medieval source or a modern
scientific work is invoqued (and I don’t take in consideration the
triumphant ‘et voilà !’ of my french countryman or his pleasant ‘many
nights on internet’ or the Stuart, Weiss and so). So, the same mistakes
are conscenciously repeated. Most of dates are at best conjectural,
names are confusing, and genealogies dubious or false. The genealogy of
the counts of Tonnerre was much debatted, notably by E. Petit, M.
Chaume, J. Laurent, C. Bouchard, J.-N. Mathieu. I give the simplest -and
the best- presentation :

1 Ermengardis (Ermengarde), m. Wilhelm (Guillaume, William) of Nevers.
2 Renhard II (Renard), count of Tonnerre ...1002-1039... (b. c. 993, d.
c. 1040).
3 Helvisa (Heilwig, Helvise, Heloise), fl. 1018.
4 Milo (Milon) IV, count of Tonnerre ...993..., d. bef. 1002.
5 Ermengardis (Ermengarde), widow of Herbert IV of Vermandois, d. aft.
1018.
8 Milo III, count of Tonnerre ...975-980..., d. c. 987.
9 Engeltrudis (Engeltrude), fl. 980.
16 Wido I (Guy), count of Tonnerre, d.bef. 975 (958 ?).
17 Adela (Adele), widow 975.
32 ? Renhard I, count of Tonnerre ...890-896...
64 Milo II, count of Langres & Tonnerre ...887...
65 Adela, widow 902.

Sources : many nights on Cartularies and ...

no 1 (Gesta Pontif., p. 398-402) ; no 2 (cart. Yonne, no 94 ; E. Petit,
Hist. ducs Bourg., II, p. 428-9) ; no 3 (E. Petit, II, p. 428-9) ; no 4
(cart. Yonne, no 80, 81, 94) ; no 5 (cart. Yonne, no 81) ; no 8 (cart.
Yonne, no 76, cart. St-Benoit, no 61) ; no 9 (cart. Yonne, no 76) ; no
16 (cart. Yonne, no 94, cart. Cluny, II, no 1044 ?) ; no 17 (cart.
St-Benoit, no 61, cart. Cluny, no 625 ?) ; no 32 (Cart. Montieramey, n°
12) ; no 64 (cart. Yonne, no 94, dipl. Charles III, 887, cart.
St-Benigne, no 154) ; no 65 (cart. St-Benigne, no 154).

Cartulaire general de l’Yonne, ed. M. Quantin, vol. I, Auxerre, 1854.
Chartes et documents de Saint-Benigne de Dijon, t. II (1943), éd. G.
Chevrier & M. Chaume, t. I (1986), éd. R. Folz & J. Marilier.
Arthur Giry, Documents carolingiens de l’abbaye de Montieramey, Etudes
d’histoire du moyen age dediees a G. Monod, Paris, 1896, p. 107-136.
Gesta Pontificum Autissiodorensium, ed. M. Duru, Auxerre, 1850.
Recueil des actes de Charles III le Simple, roi de France (893-923), 2
vol., ed. P. Lauer, Paris 1940-9.
Recueil des chartes de l’abbaye de de Cluny (802-1300), Paris, 6 vol.,
1876-1903, éd. A. Bernard et A. Bruel.
Recueil des chartes de l'abbaye de Saint-Benoit-sur-Loire, ed. M. Prou
et A. Vidier, vol. I, Paris, 1900.

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