GEN-MEDIEVAL-L Archives
Archiver > GEN-MEDIEVAL > 1998-03 > 0889238329
From: Reedpcgen< >
Subject: Re: William Longespee (LONG)
Date: 7 Mar 1998 02:38:49 GMT
>>>I have that Agnes de Longespee, daughter of William and Ela, was Abbess of
Shaftesbury Abbey in 1243. The previous Abbess had died in >>1242, so this
date of 1243 is likely to be the date of her election. In 1246 the Abbey was
back in the King's hands and the next Abbess appointed in 1247, suggesting
that Agnes had died by then - or was too ill to carry on her duties.
>
>
The was an "Agnes Lungespee, elected 1243" as Abbess of Shaftesbury, according
yo VCH Dorset 2:79 (Hutchins missed her). No indication is given as to her
parentage, but chronology would indicate she would fit as a daughter of our
William Longespee.
A FEW MORE NOTES ON WILLIAM LONGESPEE:
Walter Lee Sheppard's article on Royal Bye-blows (NEHGR 119:94-102) does give
an account of William Longespee, but he is ignorant of Countess Ida, having
theorized that his mother was Alix de Porhoet (see _The Genealogists' Magazine_
14:361-68), which was his theory. His references to DNB are not according to
the current pagination. Sheppard did, however (pp. 100-1, n. 29), mention the
DNB reference to the grant of Appleby, co. Linc. in 1188, but he too did not
know where the reference originated. In his article in _The Genealogists'
Magazine_ , Sheppard said, "an educated guess places WIlliam's birth at about
1170." But he stated this in showing that William could not be son of Rosamund
de Clifford. The Countess Ida was never mentioned in these articles.
The DNB article on William Longespee does not give the specific reference for
the 1188 grant of Appleby, which may be in error. The account of Rosamund de
Clifford actually states, "The manor of Appleby in Lincolnshire was granted to
one William Longsword (who proves to be the brother, and not the son, of Henry
II) before 1200." I think this latter statement is correct.
William Longespee, brother of King Henry II, was not alive in 1188, so if the
grant were in that year, it would have to be to Henry's son--I think the date
of the grant is in error. It was certainly before 1200.
"Appelbi" co. Linc., was mentioned in the Pipe Rolls in 1185-6 (p. 73) and
1186-7 (p. 70). The entry in both years was: "Matildisque fuit uxor Johannis
Malherbe redd. comp. de .xlvj. s. et .viij. d. pro custodia de Appelbi cum
herede suo [/hereditate sua] de qua finivit cum rege." Appleby, Lincs. was not
mentioned in the Pipe Rolls for 1190-2.
Matilda was the daughter of Adam Fitz Swane/Swain of Yorkshire (William Farrer,
_Early Yorkshire Charters_ 3:318). She was coheir with her sister Amabel (d.
1207), who married (1) Alexander de Crevequer of Redbourne, co. Linc. (d.
1164-5), and was mother of Cecily de Crevequer (d. 1218), who married Walter de
Nevill and was mother of Alexander de Nevill of Redbourne (d. ca. 1219). This
last Alexander married Margaret and was father of Alexander de Nevill of
Redbourne, Lincs., and Mirfield, Yorkshire (of age 1236), d. 1249. Alexander
died leaving several daughters and coheirs, one of whom, Ellen de Neville, was
mother of Richard le Tyes (m. Alice de Tankersley), ancestor of Elder WILLIAM
WENTWORTH of New England. Technically, the Wentworths should have been able to
quarter the arms of Tyes, Nevill, Crevequer, 'Fitz Swain' (if you can call it
that), and Tankersley, but they were ignorant of the descent by the time
quartering to that extent came into fashion.
Back to Maud. By her second husband, John Malherbe (d. 1181) she was mother of
two daughters who would become coheirs. The eldest, Mabel, married William de
la Mare (son of Ralph, who d. ca. 1203), and was mother of Mabel de la Mare (d.
1249) who married Geoffrey de Nevill. It is conjectured that Mabel had a
sister, Olivia, who was called "de la Mare" (after the decease of her two
husbands) in early Lincoln/Yorkshire records. She married (1) Hervey d'Arecy
(Darcy) of Flixborough, Lincs., and (2) Sir John de Thornhill, and was ancestor
of WILLIAM WENTWORTH through the issue of both husbands (Olivia's daughter
Sarah de Thornhill was mother of two daughters and coheirs, Alice de
Tankersley, who married Richard le Tyes [above], and Johanna de Tankersley, who
married Sir Hugh Eland, also an ancestor of William Wentworth).
The point to be made is that Mabel de la Mare held Appleby, co. Lincs., as part
of her inheritance (she died 1253) [see CP 9:502c, notes f & h]. It was thus
in the hands of her mother in 1185-7 and stayed in the family through 1253 and
later. I take this to be evidence that the 1188 date is wrong. Any grant to
William Longespee must have been earlier than 1185, and therefore would have
been to the brother of Henry II named William Longespee (who died without
issue, his lands reverting to the crown), not Henry's illegitimate son of the
same name.
There is no mention of William Longespee, or William filius Regis, in the Pipe
Rolls 1182-1186 (Pipe Roll Society, v. 32-4, 36). The Pipe Roll for 33 Henry
II (1186-7) [v. 37] contains a reference to "Willelmus frater Camerarii" in a
list of "De scutagio militum Cornubie qui non abierunt cum Rege inexercitu
Galweie (p. 155)," but it is not clear who the Chamberlain meant is.
"Galfridus filius Regis, cancellarius" was mentioned on pp. 25 and 98. He was
called Chancellor, not Chamberlain.
Volume 38 (1187-8) of the Pipe Rolls was missing, and I don't have immediate
access to the Record Commission publication (1844) of _The great roll of the
pipe for the first year of the reign of King Richard the First, A. D
.1189-1190..._ ed. by Joseph Hunter, so I can't tell if William
Longespee/William filius Regis/William frater Regis was mentioned in either of
those years. There was no mention of him in the Pipe Roll for Mich. 1190 (v.
39/n. s., v. 1).
The FIRST mention of William Longespee I can document is in 1191, after he had
received the grant from his brother Richard I (mentioned in a previous post).
The Pipe Roll Society, new series, v. 2, contains two references to "Willelmus
frater Regis" concerning his land in Kyrketon, co. Lincs. (p. 2, Mich. 1191, p.
231, Mich. 1192). So William definitely was an adult in 1191, which is the
first year he can definitely be documented. He was therefore born in or before
1170, and may well have received a grant of an important manor from his brother
as soon as he came of age.
Anyone want to check the two volumes I didn't have access to?
pcr
This thread:
| Re: William Longespee (LONG) by Reedpcgen< > |