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From: Paul C. Reed< >
Subject: Identity of Countess Ida revisited
Date: 06 Jan 2000 09:05:43 GMT
Recent correspondence has again piqued my interest in trying to prove the
identity of the Countess Ida, mother of William Longespee (illegitimate son of
Henry II).
Older members of the group may recall the many discussions we had on this group
about this subject. William twice referred to his mother as "the Countess
Ida." We determined that the only person in England who fit that bill was Ida,
wife of Roger le Bigod, Earl of Norfolk (d. 1221). Her parentage is as yet
unproved [her son Hugh le Bigod married in 1207, and his son and heir, Roger,
was born ca. 1212/13].
After an extensive search of Continental Idas who had any connection with
England, I had suggested that Ida may have belonged to the de Toeni family.
I'd like to expound a little more on this and ask for help.
Roger de Toeni [the third of that name, or III] was born ca. 1104, and died
after Michaelmas 1157, presumably before his son died in 1162. He married Ida
of Hainault, daughter of Baldwin III, Count of Hainault, by his wife Yolande de
Guelders. It is not known when Ida died, but she presumably survived him, as
Henry II granted her [Ida de Tounay] land at Garsington, co. Oxford [Rot.
Hund.].
This couple had four known sons:
(1) Ralph de Toeni [V], who succeeded his father and died 1262/3, having
married Margaret de Beaumont.
(2) Roger de Toeni, Jr., dead by 1185, when his wife Ade/Alda de Chaumont was
holding land at Holkington, co. Norfolk, in dower of her son Baldwin de Toeni
[II] (1170-1216), Seigneur de Acquigny, apparently father of Roger de Akeny and
Sir William Dakeny [Acquigny]. The Rotuli de Dominabus states that Ade/Alda
was born about 1155, and that she had five daughters aside from her son
Baldwin. [Does anyone have any Dakeny ancestry?]
(3) Baldwin de Toeni, who settled in Hainault [having resided with his uncle
Baldwin IV], where he died in 1170, leaving issue.
(4) Geoffrey de Toeni, a cleric who flourished 1157-62, 1177.
It is my theory [stated long ago] that Roger de Toeni [III] and Ida of Hainault
also had at least one--probably more than one--daughter. This Toeni family
continued naming patters to an amazing degree. The male names were repeated
generation after generation [Roger, Ralph, Baldwin (after the marriage to Ida)
and Robert]. The same was probably true of female names.
I theorize that Roger [III] and Ida of Hainault had a daughter named Ida de
Toeni, and that she married Roger le Bigod, Earl of Norfolk. Henry I is stated
to have given East Bergholt to Roger [III] de Toeni and his wife Ida of
Hainault in maritagium [Book of Fees 1:134 ("Henricus primus, Rex Anglie, dedit
Rogero de Tooni...in maritagio cum filia comitis de Henou")/Testa, 295].
So, how to find proof of this Ida?
The caput [chief place of residence] of the Toeni family was at Flamstead, co.
Herts. The Toeni family founded a Benedictine priory of nuns at Flamstead, and
the original cartulary is held at the Hertford Record Office.
I am not aware that this cartulary has been printed. Does anyone know if it
has? Does anyone have the access or expertise to search it (or know someone
who would)? Whatever information was gleaned would be an invaluable addition
to our knowledge of the Toeni family [there are certainly millions of American
descendants]. Any evidence of a candidate who could be wife of Roger le Bigod
and mother of William Longespee would be a major discovery.
Paul
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