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Archiver > GEN-MEDIEVAL > 1999-07 > 0932259836
From: William Addams Reitwiesner< >
Subject: Re: Thomas DACRE 1387-1457, (DOUGLAS/MAXWELL)
Date: Sun, 18 Jul 1999 01:03:56 GMT
(ED MANN) wrote:
> wrote:
>>
>> Does anyone have the ancestry of Thomas Dacre, b Oct 1387 and died Jan 1457?
>>
>> I am especially interested in his mother, Joan Douglas, and his paternal
>> grandmother, Elizabeth Maxwell. How do they connect to their respective
>> Douglas and Maxwell families?
>
>What I've got:
Several major problems here.
>Ancestors of Thomas de Dacre
>
>
>Generation No. 1
>
>1. Sir Thomas de Dacre, born 27 Oct 1387 in Naworth Castle,
>Gillesland, England; died 5 Jan 1457/58. He was the son of 2. Sir
>William de Dacre and 3. Joan Douglas. He married (1) Philippe Neville
>Bef. 20 Jul 1399. She died Aft. 1452. She was the daughter of Sir
>Ralph de Neville and Margaret de Stafford.
>
>
>Generation No. 2
>
>2. Sir William de Dacre, born 1357; died Abt. 1403. He was the son of
>4. Sir Hugh de Dacre and 5. Ela Maxwell. He married 3. Joan Douglas.
>3. Joan Douglas She was the daughter of 6. Sir James Douglas.
>
>
>Generation No. 3
>
>4. Sir Hugh de Dacre, died 1383. He was the son of 8. Sir Ranulph de
>Dacre and 9. Margaret de Multon. He married 5. Ela Maxwell.
>5. Ela Maxwell She was the daughter of 10. Alexander Maxwell.
>6. Sir James Douglas, died 19 Aug 1388 in Otterburn. He was the son
>of 12. Sir William Douglas and 13. Margaret de Mar.
>
>
>Generation No. 4
>
>8. Sir Ranulph de Dacre, died 1339. He married 9. Margaret de Multon.
>9. Margaret de Multon She was the daughter of 18. Sir Thomas de
>Multon and 19. Margaret.
>10. Alexander Maxwell
>12. Sir William Douglas, died 1384. He was the son of 24. Sir
>Archibald Douglas. He married 13. Margaret de Mar.
>13. Margaret de Mar, died Bef. 1418. She was the daughter of 26. Sir
>Donald de Mar and 27. Isabel Stewart.
Number 12 (whom you call "Sir William Douglas") was 1st Earl of Douglas.
See Cokayne IV:430. He married Margaret by 13 November 1357, when she is
mentioned in a charter. This means that their son, number 6, whom you call
"Sir James Douglas" and who was actually the 2nd Earl of Douglas, could not
have been born before 1358. His alleged grandson, number 1, Sir Thomas de
Dacre, who is now considered to be "6th Lord Dacre of Gilsland", was born
27 October 1387. This would mean that the 2nd Earl of Douglas was a
grandfather at age 29 (or younger).
In point of fact, even the name of number 3 is unknown. She was given the
name "Joan Douglas" in a 17th-century memorandum, and her connection to the
Earl of Douglas was invented later and is based on nothing more substantive
than a guess.
As for number 5, she was Elizabeth (not Ela), widow of Sir William de
Douglas, sometime Earl of Atholl. Elizabeth was given the maiden name
"Maxwell" in the same 17th-century memorandum, but there is no evidence to
support it, let alone any parentage for her.
William Addams Reitwiesner
"Sic gorgiamus allos subjectatos nunc."
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