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Archiver > GEN-MEDIEVAL > 1998-12 > 0912618483
From: John Carmi Parsons< >
Subject: Re: Guelph I of Bavaria, ca. 1035
Date: 2 Dec 1998 09:08:03 -0800
On 2 Dec 1998 wrote:
> 1) Is there any connection between Guelph I (Welf) of Bavaria (b. abt 1035)
> and the Wittelsbachs?
There are probably a number of female-line descents from Welf to the
Wittelsbachs, but if you mean to ask whether Welf is the male-line
ancestor of that family, the answer is no.
2) Does anyone have a line from Azo II of Este, Marquess of Este (b. bef
> 997), who is the father of Guelph I of Bavaria, to connect him to the Este
> family? The earliest I have of Este is Alfonso II (b 1533) and the latest
> is Ercole II (d. 1559).
This is indeed the same Este family. The origins of the Estensi are very
much debated. Many authorities trace their descent from a Marquess Oberto
(fl. 945-75), whose second wife was a daughter, sister or possibly
granddaughter of King Hugh of Italy. It is however uncertain if that wife
was the mother of Oberto's son Oberto II (d. 1021), who continued the
line.
Oberto I, BTW, is described by some as the son of Alberto, Marquess of
Este (fl. 890-925), grandson of Boniface (fl. 889-94) and great-grandson
of Albert I, marquess of Tuscany (d. 884/90). This Albert in turn was son
of Marquess Boniface II of Tuscany (fl. 834) and grandson of Marquess
Boniface I (fl. 812/13). Some of these links are reliable, though many
question the accuracy of the Este derivation from them.
It is well documented that Oberto II (d. 1021) married Railenda, dau. of
Count Riprand of Piacenza; V. Fumagalli suggests Railenda had Carolingian
descents both from Charlemagne's son Pepin-Carloman, king of Italy (d.
810) and Louis the Pious (see his article in _Studi Medievali_, 3rd ser.
14, pt. 1 [1973]).
Oberto and Railenda were the parents of Alberto or Azzo I (d. 1029), father of
the Alberto alias Azzo II (d. 1097) whose first wife was Cunegunde, heiress of
the first line of Welf counts. Alberto/Azzo I was married twice; the mother of
Alberto/Azzo II was probably Waldrade Candiano, daughter of Pietro Candiano,
doge of Venice, by Waldrade who was certainly a daughter of King Hugh of Italy.
(This filiation makes it doubtful that Albert Azzo II's great-grandfather
Oberto I could also have married a daughter of King Hugh).
I am relying here chiefly on the tables in Cinzio Violante's _Structures
Familiales en Lombardie, Emilie et Toscane aux XIe et XIIe siecles_.
Please note that "Obizzo" is a nickname for Oberto and "Azzo" for Alberto;
they are not distinct or double names, though some English-speaking
authorities render them so.
John Parsons
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