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From: "Rosie Bevan" < >
Subject: Re: King's Kinsfolk: Richard II's kinsman, Edmund Staffiord
Date: 1 Sep 2005 21:26:19 -0700
References: <4314e4dd@news.ColoState.EDU><Ln6Re.38$lY2.5326@news.uswest.net>
In-Reply-To: <Ln6Re.38$lY2.5326@news.uswest.net>
Dear Luke
It's very refreshing to see that your analysis agrees with what I find:
there is no room for an additional Richard de Vernon - evidence shows
that there were only two - and Isabella was the daughter of Maud de
Camville.
In 1310/1311 Richard de Vernon claimed next presentation to the church
of Pitchcott and gave the following pedigree [Wm Salt 1st series 9:27]
1. Matilda de Vernon
2. Richard de Vernon d.s.p.
2. Robert de Vernon
3. Hawise de Vernon
+ Gilbert de Franceys
4. Richard de Vernon claimant in 1310/11
The obvious inference of this is that Richard de Vernon, snr, who was
born c 1268 was still living in 1310/11 and had not died in 1292 as
Farrer assumed, mistakenly adducing other evidence to give the family
three generations of Richards.
On 3 February 1323 a writ of diem clausit was sent out for Richard son
of Richard de Vernon who had recently died. His IPM [CIPM 6 no 406]
reveals that
a) Richard jnr's son and heir was aged 10 and more i.e. born about
1313,
b) Richard jnr's father had settled moieties of the manor of Nether
Haddon and Baslow on Richard his son and his wife Maud in 1309.
William was Maud's son.
c) In 1314/15 Richard snr had given the manors of Harlaston and Little
Appleby to his son, Richard jnr, who had demised them back to his
father for his life, with reversion to himself and heirs.
d) Richard jnr and Maud his wife held jointly the manor of Clifton
Camville by feoffment of William de Camville.
By Trinity 1329 Richard snr had died, so Isabella his widow sued
William de Vernon for dower in Nether Haddon and Baslow. A year later
she sued for dower in Harlaston.[Wm Salt 11:9,18]
In 1329 Maud, Richard jnr's widow, also claimed the third part of
Pitchcott as her dower, for which she'd sued shortly after her
husband's death but had not received. Now that her father-in-law was
dead the sheriff was ordered to summon the tenants of Pitchcott to
court to give reason why she should not have her dower. [Wm Salt 11:9]
By 1339 William had died and his son, Richard, ("Richard son of William
de Vernon, chiv, kinsman and heir of Richard de Vernon the younger, who
was under age") was called to warrant for Maud, widow of Richard de
Vernon the younger.[Wm Salt 11:87]
In 1339 a fine was made between Maud de Vernon and her sister Alianora
with her husband Richard de Peures, of a knight's fee in Stotfold,
Haselore, and the manor of Clifton Campvill. Maud acknowledged that
they belonged to Alianor, for which Alianor granted them to Maud for
her life with remainder to Richard de Stafford and Isabella his wife
and their issue, failing such remainder to Maud daughter of Richard de
Vernon and her issue, failing such the right heirs of Maud de Vernon.
Maud and Eleanor and their three sisters put in their claims. [Wm Salt
11: 185].
The clear inference is that Isabella was daughter of Maud, not Eleanor
de Fiennes. The fact that Isabella's eldest daughter was named Maud,
would support this.
In 1346 Henry de la Pole sued Joan formerly wife of William Vernon of
Nether Haddon [Wm Salt 12:58]
In 1365 Richard de Vernon was sued for the next presentation of the
church of Appleby. He said that Richard de Vernon his great grandfather
("proavus") was seised of the manor of Parva Appleby to which the
advowson was appurtenant, in the time of King Henry, and from the said
Richard the manor descended to one Richard as son and heir, and from
the last Richard to one William his son and heir, who was under age,
and from the said William to Richard the plaintiff as son and heir. [Wm
Salt 13:50]
Although the claim that his great grandfather, Richard de Vernon, was
seised of the manor in the time of Henry III must be made in error, the
Richard de Vernon in question cannot be anyone other than son of Hawise
de Vernon.
If we collate the above information the following pedigree is what we
get.
1. Matilda de Vernon
2. Richard de Vernon d.s.p.
2. Robert de Vernon
3. Hawise de Vernon
+ Gilbert de Franceys
4. Richard de Vernon, snr, c.1268-c.1329
+ Isabella, survived husband
5. Richard de Vernon, jnr, d. 1323
+ Eleanor de Fiennes, dead by 1309
+ Maud de Camville
6. William de Vernon b. c 1313- c.1339
+ Joan fl 1346
7. Richard de Vernon, minor in 1339
6. Isabella de Vernon
+ Richard de Stafford
6. Maud de Vernon
The interpretation that the manors of Pitchcott, Adstock and Baslow
which had been settled on Richard and Eleanor, had reverted back to
Richard senior by 1302, is Farrer's, but there is no indication of this
in 'Feudal Aids' which simply lists "Richard Vernon and his tenants".
Richard de Vernon, snr was in prison between 1292 and 1295 so Giles de
Fiennes was clearly holding the manors as 'custos' or guardian during
the minority of his son-in-law. Richard jnr would have taken possession
as soon as he reached his majority whether his first wife was living or
not. There is no indication that Eleanor ever had children and was
clearly dead by 1309.
Typically Mr Richardson seems to be too ready to resort to genealogy by
crystal ball gazing rather than doing the proper groundwork. As always
he's very fortunate that others are willing to do it for him even if it
means putting the spotlight on his shortcomings.
Cheers
Rosie
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