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Archiver > GEN-MEDIEVAL > 1998-05 > 0894550358


From: Richard Borthwick< >
Subject: Re: deCOURTNEY
Date: 7 May 1998 07:12:38 -0700


>X-Sender:
>Date: Thu, 07 May 1998 14:40:37 +0800
>To: Richard Borthwick < >
>From: Richard Borthwick < >
>Subject: Re: deCOURTNEY
>X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by cyllene.uwa.edu.au
id OAA08002
>
>At 18:44 6/05/98 -0700, you wrote:
>>UTZ wrote:
>>
>>> In a message dated 5/5/98 5:56:23 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
>>> writes:
>>>
>>> >
>>> > 1 Emperor of the West Charlemagne 747 - 813/14 ref #:
Ä50-13
>>> > +Himiltrude Abt. 742 -
>>> > 2 Aupais Abt. 738 - ref #: (Ä191-14)
>>> > +Count Begue de Paris Abt. 738 - 816 ref #: Ä191-14
>>>
>>> Sorry to nit pick but how can this be so. We have both Aupais and her
>husband
>>> b. before Charlemagne and his wife.
>>
>>Hmm. They do it with mirrors; they make up for it by volume; the
>>check's in the mail . . .
>>
>>Delete the birth dates for both - Weis doesn't list any. Delete also
>>Aupais' death date.
>>
>>--
>>FWIW; AFAIK; IMHO; YMMV; yadda, yadda, yadda.
>>
>>Regards, Ed Mann mailto:
>>
>>References:
>> Ä = Weis, _Ancestral_Roots_, 7th ed.
>> AAP = Roberts, _Ancestors_of_American_Presidents_, [page] or
>> [Pres. # : page].
>> BP1 = _Burke's_Presidential_Families_, 1st ed. [page].
>> BPci = _Burke's_Peerage_, 101st ed., [page].
>> BRF = Weir, _Britain's_Royal_Families_, [page].
>> BxP = _Burke's_Dormant_&_Extinct_Peerages_, [page].
>> EC1 = Redlich, _Emperor_Charlemagne's_Descendants_, Vol I, [page].
>> EC2 = Langston & Buck, _Emperor_Charlemagne's_Descendants_, Vol II,
>> [page].
>> EC3 = Buck & Beard, _Emperor_Charlemagne's_Descendants_, Vol II,
>> [page].
>> F = Faris, _Plantagenet_Ancestry_, [page:para].
>> S = Stuart, _Royalty_for_Commoners_, 2d ed.
>> W = Weis, _Magna_Charta_Sureties,_1215_, 4th ed.
>>
>>
Alpais (b.ca.794 d.after 852 m.ca.806) wife of count Bego (b.ca.755/60
d.816) was the daughter of Louis the Pious (son of Charlemagne) by an
unknown mistress. As abbess of S.-Pierre-le-Bas at Rheims Alpais witnesses
as daughter of Louis the Pious [Sources: K F Werner "Nachkommen Karls des
Grossen" in Braunfels (ed) *Karl der Grosse: Lebenswerk und Nachleben* cf
Hlawitschka's critique of Werner's account in *Anfaenge de Hauses
Habsburg-Lothringen* pp.165-169.]. Below is a sketch of Hlawitschka's
reconstruction. The main difference from Werner's reconstruction is that
Hlawitschka has Susanna as the child of Bego by a first marriage and not by
Alpais. That Bego had such a marriage is highly likely since he was 45/50 by
the time of his marriage with Alpais. It is also certain that Susanna was
Bego's daughter. If Susanna had been the daughter of Alpais then the
marriage of Susanna's granddaughter, Adelheid, to Louis the Stammerer would
have been within the prohibited degrees (4:2 through Louis the Pious). The
broken horizontal line indicates highly probable siblinghood and the dotted
verticals indicate highly probable filiation. I hope the table holds up
under transmission (it is my first effort at such a table)!

Louis the Pious # NN Gerhard
| oo Rotrud
| :
| _:_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _
Alpais (2)oo Bego oo(1) NN Leuthard oo
| : Grimhild
| : :
______________________| _____:_ :
Leuthard Eberhard Susanna oo Wulfhard I Ingeltrude
| oo Odo
| |
__________________________________________|__________ |
Wulfhard II NN Immo Hildeburg Adalhard Vulgrin Ermentrud
| | oo Charles II
| | "the Bald"
| | |
| __________|___________ |
Vulgrin Wulfhard III Adelheid oo Louis II "the
Stammerer"

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